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Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ?
Yes ... all other factors of Image Quality are derivative of / indicated by DR
No ... it is but one factor of Image Quality
I don't care if it is or not ... it's the most important thing to me
I don't care if it is or not ... it's not the most important thing to me

Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???
  
 
Rajan Parrikar
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


gdanmitchell wrote:
As for Rajan, I've been mystified for years by the personal vehemence of his replies to my posts. For a long time I simply didn't reply. Once I asked him about it and proposed a sort of truce, and I thought we had some kind of agreement. Then after not posting here for months, what was nearly my first post seemed to provoke another personal insult.

Odd. And perplexing. ;-)



Dan,

Please try and not make this forum and threads about you, if you can. Please also learn that dissent, disagreement and difference in opinion, strong or otherwise, does not equate to vehemence and personal insults. Things won't look odd or perplexing if you view things a little more dispassionately instead of thinking it is all about you.






Aug 13, 2017 at 02:26 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Rajan Parrikar wrote:
Please try and not make this forum and threads about you, if you can. Please also learn that dissent, disagreement and difference in opinion, strong or otherwise, does not equate to vehemence and personal insults. Things won't look odd or perplexing if you view things a little more dispassionately instead of thinking it is all about you.


Again there you go again, Rajan. Personalizing and trying to explain to me how to be a better person.

I wonder if it is possible for you to reply to a post on something photographic without being insulting or condescending? You just can't let it go, can you? I tried. Didn't work.

Bye.



Aug 13, 2017 at 02:31 AM
ggreene
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


RustyBug wrote:
This almost begs the question of "Can too much DR be detrimental to IQ?"


It's not detrimental but the common usage of it is woefully overdone. If these 5+ stop pushes yielded more then mushy washed out colors and overprocessed toning I'd be more positive about it.



Aug 13, 2017 at 04:04 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


ggreene wrote:
It's not detrimental but the common usage of it is woefully overdone. If these 5+ stop pushes yielded more then mushy washed out colors and overprocessed toning I'd be more positive about it.


I don't think that a capture system could have "too much DR." Someone might misuse the image data recorded by such a system, but others could well make use of it in beneficial ways.

When I read the attribution of mushy washed out colors and overprocessed toning (?) to original captures made with high DR systems I am reminded of a secret about HDR processing. Back when this first became popular at the hands of certain photographers who used it as an obvious effect, folks began to think that this was how HDR images would work. Meanwhile, there were (and, of course, still are) a number of photographers who sometimes use HDR techniques in subtle and beautiful ways to produce photographs that viewers would not likely imagine to have been made with such techniques.

In lots of cases it is how the technique is used, not the technique itself.



Aug 13, 2017 at 04:24 AM
RustyBug
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


rattlebonez wrote:
Sony has yet to build a camera with ergonomics worth using.


Some of the A mount bodies aren't nearly that bad. It was when they left the A mount and went to the E mount that they seemingly tanked a vast part of their good ergo-knowledge.

But, that's a bit of a stretch from the subject of DR (other than all roads can eventually lead there).



Aug 13, 2017 at 05:44 AM
Paul Mo
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???




M_J_Helin wrote:
High dynamic range is not a Holy Grail, but when everything else is in order but one, you start to miss that one.

Here's an example; D600, before and after:

https://mattihelin.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Maisemat/Taivaan+tapahtumia/27072017+(19).jpg/_medium.jpg

https://mattihelin.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Maisemat/Kes%C3%A4kuvailut+2017/NLC27072017.jpg/_big.jpg


I like this image, as I like the example of what the Sonikon sensor can do. But seeing 'reality' next to the tweaked version does something weird to my brain.

I guess pulling back a little - dropping the shadows down a tad - might alleviate that.



Aug 13, 2017 at 07:25 AM
M_J_Helin
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


dhphoto wrote:
I'd think we'd need to see a closeup of the boosted area to make a decent comparison


Here's a panorama. Link

One thing you should know about this, it's shot at 2am. Practically midnight, so that the light on the foreground comes from the twilight sky.


Some more
















All shot at night time. As you can probably guess



Aug 13, 2017 at 07:37 AM
KKFung
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


I think testing DR the scene need to have very strong highlight which can blown the sensor easily and at the same time have the back lit foreground.

B14I5768-Pano-2 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

B14I5768-Pano by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

100% lower right corner
B14I5768-Pano-3 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

100% lower middle
B14I5768-Pano-4 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

100% near center
B14I5768-Pano-5 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr



Aug 13, 2017 at 09:56 AM
Isaacheus
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p.7 #9 · p.7 #9 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


KKFung, what camera are you using for these shots?
Really nice shot too, I think this is a good example of tasteful use of dynamic range



Aug 13, 2017 at 11:06 AM
ggreene
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p.7 #10 · p.7 #10 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


RustyBug wrote:
Some of the A mount bodies aren't nearly that bad. It was when they left the A mount and went to the E mount that they seemingly tanked a vast part of their good ergo-knowledge.


I think the problem is there is no option in e-mount for a larger sized body. It's fine to offer people a much smaller, lighter body style but there should be other options especially if you want to be taken seriously as a camera system. Canon has a full range of bodies appealing to a wide range of preferences.

The latest A9 is a good example. It didn't need to be as large as a D5 or 1D series but it needed to be larger. Just looking at some of the photos of how people hold it and what your hand position looks like on it makes me cringe. Bad enough you are forced to jam your fingers into a grip/lens gap that is far too small but look at how scrunched up the hand is to use the buttons.

I keep hearing the added grip excuse but it won't help. It makes the camera taller not wider.

I really like the features of the A9 but I'm hoping an A9mk2 offers better ergonomics as we get closer to the Tokyo Olympics. Almost every review I've seen said it could be a little larger, especially if you are using 300 to 600mm lenses on it.



Aug 13, 2017 at 12:17 PM
 

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KKFung
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p.7 #11 · p.7 #11 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Isaacheus wrote:
KKFung, what camera are you using for these shots?
Really nice shot too, I think this is a good example of tasteful use of dynamic range


Thanks Isaac, this is using 1Dx2, exposure to the right but the highlight is really difficult to adjust in the histogram since the high light spot is too bright to be visible by our naked eyes.



Aug 13, 2017 at 01:13 PM
charlyw
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p.7 #12 · p.7 #12 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


M_J_Helin wrote:
Here's a panorama. Link

One thing you should know about this, it's shot at 2am. Practically midnight, so that the light on the foreground comes from the twilight sky.


And why does anyone want to see that uninspiring landscape in front of the hero of the shot (the light) - you even managed to mess up the aurora because in the panorama there are distinct tone value steps visible, unlike in the normal shot you provided... For me that's another clear case against high DR from the camera - you couldn't let go of the extra captured DR and had to take away the mystery of the shot and replaced it by a banal nordic landscape which only distracts - trees leaning into all directions doesn't seem to be correct, is there even an error in your nodal adapter setup?



Aug 13, 2017 at 01:46 PM
brian_sp
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p.7 #13 · p.7 #13 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


M_J_Helin wrote:
High dynamic range is not a Holy Grail, but when everything else is in order but one, you start to miss that one.

Here's an example; D600, before and after:

https://mattihelin.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Maisemat/Taivaan+tapahtumia/27072017+(19).jpg/_medium.jpg

https://mattihelin.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Maisemat/Kes%C3%A4kuvailut+2017/NLC27072017.jpg/_big.jpg


great job MJ
i really don't see what was described as washed out colors in this, i find the colors vibrant and not overly saturated, DR done right

as for the examples here by the canon bodies, well now the colors are falling flat, a pastel look to them with no vibrance to the colors at all


and never mind charly...he's nothing more than an arm chair rocket scientist




Aug 13, 2017 at 02:01 PM
brian_sp
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p.7 #14 · p.7 #14 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


charlyw wrote:
And why does anyone want to see that uninspiring landscape in front of the hero of the shot (the light) - you even managed to mess up the aurora because in the panorama there are distinct tone value steps visible, unlike in the normal shot you provided... For me that's another clear case against high DR from the camera - you couldn't let go of the extra captured DR and had to take away the mystery of the shot and replaced it by a banal nordic landscape which only distracts - trees leaning into all directions doesn't seem to be
...Show more


but yet nothing mentioned about the canon shots with lifted shadows? those look natural to you eh?




Aug 13, 2017 at 02:05 PM
M_J_Helin
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p.7 #15 · p.7 #15 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???




charlyw wrote:
And why does anyone want to see that uninspiring landscape in front of the hero of the shot (the light) - you even managed to mess up the aurora because in the panorama there are distinct tone value steps visible, unlike in the normal shot you provided... For me that's another clear case against high DR from the camera - you couldn't let go of the extra captured DR and had to take away the mystery of the shot and replaced it by a banal nordic landscape which only distracts - trees leaning into all directions doesn't seem to be
...Show more

Thanks for the reply..

FYI, I was trying to photograph a misty bog that was in front of the auroras. I like it, it captured the atmosphere that was presented in the woods that night.

I suppose you haven't been to a bog, ever, have you? The trees are leaning all over...



Aug 13, 2017 at 02:09 PM
molson
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p.7 #16 · p.7 #16 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


rattlebonez wrote:
Yes, indeed the Canon lenses are quite nice.

A Sony A7R II on my 400mm F4 DO IS II would be humorous. Totally unusable.

no possible way to hold onto that tiny body and steady the lens


Plus you would need to be adept at manual focus, since the A7R II's AF system gives up when the light levels drop, especially using adapted telephoto lenses.



Aug 13, 2017 at 02:47 PM
KKFung
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p.7 #17 · p.7 #17 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


one more sample for reference

B14I5734-Pano-4 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

B14I5734-Pano-3 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

100% for the lower right corner, under the wooden bridge
B14I5734-Pano-5 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr



Aug 13, 2017 at 03:27 PM
RustyBug
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p.7 #18 · p.7 #18 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


ggreene wrote:
I think the problem is there is no option in e-mount for a larger sized body. It's fine to offer people a much smaller, lighter body style but there should be other options especially if you want to be taken seriously as a camera system. Canon has a full range of bodies appealing to a wide range of preferences.

The latest A9 is a good example. It didn't need to be as large as a D5 or 1D series but it needed to be larger. Just looking at some of the photos of how people hold it and what your
...Show more

Yeah, despite all the brand bashing ... I've had an eye on Sony for a long time (since the A900), but am not a fan of the SLT approach. I was hoping they would bring the A9 in E-mount, but in a different form factor from the A7 series. I've said for years, they could do so and the extra space would facilitate everything from better ergonomics to more real estate for engineering (heat sink, electronics, articulating display, card slots, ports, microphones, etc.). Alas, they didn't ... thus, I still haven't (well except for the A7 battery grip I still have since everyone said that would fix things ... not).

My bag is pretty well set for now with the 6D2 (despite the neg press) & 80D as a 1-2 combo. The way I figure ... it'll be at least 3 years before Sony would (possibly) bring a different form factor. The same goes for the waiting for a 6D3 or 5D5 with flippy ... so, I'll be getting on with the 6D2, which just fits my hand very "Goldilocks".

So far, I'm very content with the 6D2, and I know I have only scratched the surface of using it. Is there a limitation on its DR ... sure, why not. But, then again, every camera has a limitation on DR, they just happen to be a little different.





Edited on Aug 13, 2017 at 03:55 PM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2017 at 03:39 PM
dhphoto
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p.7 #19 · p.7 #19 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Surely you aren't trying to tell us this was taken on a Canon camera? It has shadow AND highlight detail (plus a great composition). It MUST have been taken on a Nikon or Sony, not a lowly Canon 1Dx2?





It's lovely



Aug 13, 2017 at 03:53 PM
RustyBug
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p.7 #20 · p.7 #20 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


M_J_Helin wrote:









Honest

What happened to the sunset?

I mean, if you're gonna lose the sunset anyway ... why not just expose for the scene as needed from (moon / sky) the other illumination source, anyway, to begin with?





Edited on Aug 13, 2017 at 04:11 PM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2017 at 04:03 PM
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