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Archive 2017 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???

  
 
jorkata
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


The 5DIV strikes a very good balance between resolution, high ISO performance and dynamic range.

Canon should have reused the 5DIV sensor in the 6DII.



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:16 AM
willis
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


To record a scene in very bright sun with deep shadows and lose no detail probably needs 20+ stops of DR which we are nowhere near, then again to display this it would have to be heavily tone mapped to our output devices/prints, producing images which most of us would find objectionable.
Carefully used I'd say what we have now is good enough for the available output DR in all but extreme circunstances and I'm not sure what an extra few stops will achieve except for some extra ease of capturing what you can eventually use/display (ie allows for lazy technique). The move from 10 stops to 12-13+ stops has been genuinely useful but I'm not convinced that many more will be helpful when we are still printing on paper or displaying on current monitors.
With the latest Canon sensors DR is plenty good enough for my purposes and high ISO DR has held up well for a long time, though here there is still room for improvement as is the case with colour fidelity.
IMO comparisons on the likes of DPR are becoming silly when comparing 6 stop pushes from 400 ISO-until a year or two ago DR was glossed over on that site.



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:19 AM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


The difference between my 6D and A7r is often I dont need to use a 3 stop grad with the sony. Sometimes I do. At that point I'd be reaching for a second with the canon.

More filters is bad, more IQ issues, less options ( what if I wanted to use an ND too?) and slower.

I know with the sony I have the ability to push the shadows significantly if needed.

I found a MT Cook image I liked the other day from hmm 2013/14, shot on a 5d2, but under exposed, sky was fine. The file is useless cant recover it worth a damn, if it was taken on a sony I would be fine.

Whats wrong with wanting more and better from a company we know can deliver it now?



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:23 AM
KKFung
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Cross posted

More DR is always better but never be perfect. You still need your own skill and technique to make your picture perfect.

Recently I shoot landscape with the Phase One 100MP side by side with the 1Dx2, I found that when I need the 1Dx2 doing bracketing, the P1 also need to bracketing too. The DR of the camera technology is just too small to compare to the DR in the nature, why we always being stuck in the +/-1 stop DR different (even in low ISO only) between camera and camera?

Also, my understanding of lifting shadow and bracketing are just 2 different kind of tools, we need them both and they can't be replaced each other.

Lifting Shadow can save a lot of work during shooting, but it only means raise up the insufficient data in the file so no matter there is no noise in the shadow, those color fidelity will not be able to recovered, may be the over cook of the shadow lift can be treated as art, it really depends on the original purpose of the photo

Bracketing and blending really need more workflow during shooting and PP, also need more skill to make the final photo looks natural and not over cook. We always need some lifting shadow in bracketing too.



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:29 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


KKFung wrote:
Cross posted

More DR is always better but never be perfect. You still need your own skill and technique to make your picture perfect.

Recently I shoot landscape with the Phase One 100MP side by side with the 1Dx2, I found that when I need the 1Dx2 doing bracketing, the P1 also need to bracketing too. The DR of the camera technology is just too small to compare to the DR in the nature, why we always being stuck in the +/-1 stop DR different (even in low ISO only) between camera and camera?

Also, my understanding of lifting shadow and bracketing are
...Show more

I mean this with huge respect and I am not for one moment intending to be funny or racist, but you type in an Asian accent!

I agree with what you say



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:31 AM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Sometimes you cant bracket.
Sometimes you cant use filters.

They are all valid tools and its best to have them all available.



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:32 AM
charlyw
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


DR is like chillies in cooking. Up to a certain point more is better but then comes a point when even the hardiest diner can't stomach the result anymore - and the current cameras are approaching in the territory of the Bhut Jolokia chilli - some without a taste bud left can get some enjoyment out of them, for the rest it's painful...


Aug 11, 2017 at 03:51 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


charlyw wrote:
DR is like chillies in cooking. Up to a certain point more is better but then comes a point when even the hardiest diner can't stomach the result anymore - and the current cameras are approaching in the territory of the Bhut Jolokia chilli - some without a taste bud left can get some enjoyment out of them, for the rest it's painful...


Not sure if you have any higher DR cameras, I have an 80D and frankly the results are exactly the same as my 100D, just slightly bigger, I certainly can't tell them apart on a screen.

IMHO it's just not a big deal, if some need DR that's fine, I never have, many vehemently disagree



Aug 11, 2017 at 03:55 AM
charlyw
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


dhphoto wrote:
Not sure if you have any higher DR cameras, I have an 80D and frankly the results are exactly the same as my 100D, just slightly bigger, I certainly can't tell them apart on a screen.


I completely agree with you - I thought that would be clear in my analogy using chillies...



Aug 11, 2017 at 04:04 AM
justruss
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


As the saying goes: "Sex isn't the most important part of a relationship. Unless you're not having it."

DR is the same. So is resolution.

Let's think in terms of thresholds rather than absolutes. If you have 16 stops of DR, and only 4mp of resolution-- another stop of DR is probably going to feel worthless compared to 10 or 20 extra MP or resolution. If you have 100MP of resolution, but 8 stops of DR-- 10 to 20MP more resolution is going to feel worthless compared to 4-8 stops extra DR.

I voted #2, btw. DR is important to me. Resolution is important to me. Color accuracy and noise characteristics are important to me. When one of those areas is lagging compared to the others-- that's the thing that I set my sights on rectifying.

When I went from my 5D2 to A7rII (a transition many have made, or are considering: 5D1,2,3, 6D -> )... I was able to get significant jumps in all those areas (DR, resolution, color accuracy, noise characteristics). The 5D4 offers something similar, but with a bit lower resolution jump. The 6D2 does not offer much (noise).

As I see it, the reasons DR comes up so much:

i) It's probably the only area where Canon has lagged dramatically, and now, only recently, has caught up.... in some of the line (the 6D2 is a disappointment there).

ii) Every time it comes up as ONE of the important factors (not the holy grail), a small group of people go on a crusade against DR mattering at all or much at all as if their needs are the only needs and those of us who value DR are fools. Side note: That small group often accuses the folks who seek DR as one of a number of qualities as: lazy, low-skilled, spec-chasers rather than thoughtful, balanced, skilled photographers.

We've seen this over and over and over again with different measures with different manufacturers. FF doesn't matter-- until it does. Resolution doesn't matter-- until it does. CFA or color accuracy or metamerism doesn't matter-- until it does. DR doensn't matter-- until it does. "Until it does" seems to mean, "Until my manufacturer of choice embraces it as an important area to improve-- and takes steps to improve/offer it."

Trying to corral all talk of DR to one thread is like trying to corral all talk of resolution to one thread. It's silly and futile. Cameras and systems are a complex mix of specificiations, real-world use, and compromises. Picking one metric to ignore... is just as silly as picking one metric to rule them all. DR is neither. It's just one more IQ component-- an important one, no matter where you set your threshold... you set it somewhere-- neither without importance or the holy grail when speaking broadly across a mix of photographers and needs. Same with resolution and ...



Aug 11, 2017 at 04:25 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


justruss wrote:
As the saying goes: "Sex isn't the most important part of a relationship. Unless you're not having it."

DR is the same. So is resolution.

Let's think in terms of thresholds rather than absolutes. If you have 16 stops of DR, and only 4mp of resolution-- another stop of DR is probably going to feel worthless compared to 10 or 20 extra MP or resolution. If you have 100MP of resolution, but 8 stops of DR-- 10 to 20MP more resolution is going to feel worthless compared to 4-8 stops extra DR.

I voted #2, btw. DR is important to me. Resolution
...Show more

All of what you say is true. So why do these conversations get so heated? The reason is because this is a gear forum and 1/000th's matter to some, plus a good slice of brand and model loyalty.

I've just got used to it.



Aug 11, 2017 at 04:29 AM
justruss
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


dhphoto wrote:
All of what you say is true. So why do these conversations get so heated? The reason is because this is a gear forum and 1/000th's matter to some, plus a good slice of brand and model loyalty.

I've just got used to it.


They get so heated because:

Person A says: "To me, resolution is really important-- and it's a compelling reason to upgrade or not."

... and then...

Person B says: "You're lazy, and a bad photographer, and you produce crap if you need more resolution to get the job done-- I've been getting the job done with 10-20% less resolution just fine for decades."

The problem, in that situation, is not Person A. Person A is expressing wants, needs, or desires about Person A's photography and gear. The problem is Person B. Person B is telling Person A what Person A should want, need, or desire-- and going further to tell Person A that Person A's wants/needs/desire represent a lack of skill or grit.

That's why such conversations get so heated. It's the moment when one person can't handle another person's own desires-- and starts talking as if "photography" and "photographer" are monolithic concepts with no variance between wants, needs, and desires.

Look, if someone wants perfect representation of pure RED (let's not get into color science too deeply for now) above all else-- that's that person's thing. I can say pretty safely that most of us aren't too worried about that, and it doesn't rank high on my list. But I cannot say that that desire makes that person lazy or unskilled or wrong. Make sense?



Aug 11, 2017 at 04:38 AM
justruss
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


charlyw wrote:
DR is like chillies in cooking. Up to a certain point more is better but then comes a point when even the hardiest diner can't stomach the result anymore - and the current cameras are approaching in the territory of the Bhut Jolokia chilli - some without a taste bud left can get some enjoyment out of them, for the rest it's painful...


Yeah, and...

Some of those chili heads say they love Bhut Jolokia, that extreme spice is a component of taste, or experience (which is a component of taste). That social, visual, cultural context impacts cuisine and taste. Some say that they've increased their capacity for spice so that they can taste differences between even the hottest chillies. It's like Person A who can't stomach black pepper (and I know someone like this) saying that Dish X tastes like nothing but spice; Person B can turn around and say that Dish X is barely spicey, and has a nice floral taste from the chili.

It's just like that.

And then someone says: Those Chili heads are wrong. They can't taste any difference-- I'm the arbiter! They are making things up. Disregard the chili head's opinion, because mine is the one true answer.

How about trying this: "For me, habaneros are so hot that I can't really tell any difference in taste once I go to something spicier-- so I am not looking for spicer." Rather than, "Anyone who says they like spicier and can taste flavor subtleties in anything hotter than a habanero-- is wrong."

Does that make sense?

It's like when a climber who can climb V8 (a difficulty rating) says that obviously one you're at V8 nothing harder is that interesting, because it's only about pain tolerance-- and that anyone climbing V12 who says they enjoy it kmust be wrong. But then there's this V12 climber sitting right in front of you telling you why she LOVES V12 climbs. But you are just ignoring her and telling her she is wrong about what she values, enjoys, desires. It's similar.



Aug 11, 2017 at 04:46 AM
Gochugogi
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Ergonomics, good video features and AF are the most important hallmarks for me. IQ and resolution are really good on even the worse recent DSLRs. I can be happy with just about any recent DSLR as long as it hits my hallmarks.


Aug 11, 2017 at 04:47 AM
Mikehit
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Part of the reason it gets heated is that there are often massive assumptions that it is as simple as putting a function in there while still maintaining price point and trying to explain that gets calls of 'fanboy' and 'apologist'. But something's gotta give, otherwise price goes up, sales go down and your whole strategy is screwed. Pre-announcement, the cry was '80D with FF', and that is what has been delivered except for one small part in DR at low ISO - I totally agree that one small part is important to some, but the more vocal reactions to often it go way overboard. Being disappointed, I can understand but it is when the drama queens dive in with cries of how they have been 'cheated' or they feel 'bitter' or how they bought lenses anticipating a move to FF and now they won't, it ratchets it all up. And that ratchet works both ways.

But it isn't just DR. Some people want DR, some people want 4k video, some people want tilty flippy, or a better AF. Now why should the DR people have their desired function and not the 4K people or the AF people? Or the tilty-flippy lovers?
The only logical extension is that Canon should put all those in - after all the technology is there so it shouldn't cost anything, right? In other words, 5DIV at 2,000 USD with the only difference the quality of weather sealing. But that would be ridiculous So Canon choose a price point and build to that price point (which includes profit projections), just like every single manufacturer does - or should.



Aug 11, 2017 at 04:57 AM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


^^ I dont think anyone specifically mentioned 6dmk2 here lol but you can tell..


Aug 11, 2017 at 05:17 AM
Mikehit
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


RobDickinson wrote:
^^ I dont think anyone specifically mentioned 6dmk2 here lol but you can tell..


I see your point, but I was using that as an example as to how things get derailed with the drama queens jump in and change the tone of the conversation.



Aug 11, 2017 at 05:24 AM
charlyw
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Mikehit wrote:
In other words, 5DIV at 2,000 USD with the only difference the quality of weather sealing.

Hey, don't you dare leave out the weather sealing, the technology is there and therefore it must be used...

Mikehit wrote
But that would be ridiculous So Canon choose a price point and build to that price point (which includes profit projections), just like every single manufacturer does - or should.

Yupp...



Aug 11, 2017 at 05:26 AM
KKFung
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


dhphoto wrote:
I mean this with huge respect and I am not for one moment intending to be funny or racist, but you type in an Asian accent!

I agree with what you say


Appreciate your understanding! And sorry for my poor English



Aug 11, 2017 at 05:27 AM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Is DR the definitive Holy Grail benchmark of IQ ???


Theres no reason why canon couldnt have provided the 6d2 with more DR. cost isnt the issue.

Apart from 6 extra mp the sensor is all round worse than the previous 5 year old one.



Aug 11, 2017 at 05:28 AM
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