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Archive 2017 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.

  
 
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Dear friends, thanks in advance for every help.

After 10 years using a Canon Full Frame system I´m switching to Nikon.
I´ve been using a Canon 100mm F2.8 L and a unique lenses:
http://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/ef353.html
Magnification from 1:1 to 5:1 with a single lenses.

What can I use to achieve the same results (magnification) in the Nikon system?
Tubes? How much can I achieve with a set of Kenko tubes? 3:1? More? Other brands?
A bellows? Any suggestions on brands and/models? Anyone using Novoflex bellows?

I´m thinking about Nikon AFS 60/2.8 Micro and Tokina 100mm f2.8 Macro; both can do 1:1 for my macro work.

My work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136118314@N06/albums/with/72157674993795701

Thanks again for your kind help.
Best regards



Jul 19, 2017 at 02:56 PM
JohnK007
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
Dear friends, thanks in advance for every help.

After 10 years using a Canon Full Frame system I´m switching to Nikon.
I´ve been using a Canon 100mm F2.8 L and a unique lenses:
http://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/ef353.html
Magnification from 1:1 to 5:1 with a single lenses.

What can I use to achieve the same results (magnification) in the Nikon system?
Tubes? How much can I achieve with a set of Kenko tubes? 3:1? More? Other brands?
A bellows? Any suggestions on brands and/models? Anyone using Novoflex bellows?

I´m thinking about Nikon AFS 60/2.8 Micro and Tokina 100mm f2.8 Macro; both can do 1:1 for my macro work.



Hi;

I am writing two blog posts on this very subject, both are unfinished. In fact, my whole new website is unfinished ... but I am pretty passionate about this subject, so here goes:

Essentially, the answer boils down to reverse-lens photography. It is superior to extension tubes. In fact, that is all the MP-65mm is, is a reverse-zoom lens, specially-crafted by Canon.

Here is the beginnings of a post I am doing on reverse-macro: Reverse-Macro Photography.

For regular macro, it depends what your budget is, but I would get the Voigtländer 125mm f/2.5 Apo-Lanthar.

It is better than the Zeiss 100mm, and it is light-years better than the plasticky macro lenses of today. (The Voigtländer brand name was licensed by the Japanese company, Cosina, who makes every Zeiss lens available today, including the Otus series. Cosina's 'Voigtländer' Apo Macro was discontinued, after only a few years in production, due to the pressure Zeiss put on them, not to create a better macro lens on their own, whilst Cosina was still producing lenses for Zeiss. The lens is now a collector's item and it is sublime compared to today's macros.)

At any rate, if you want to read an eBook regarding the best general (1:2 - 1:1) macros you can get for Nikon cameras, Michael Erlewine's Macro Lens eBook is a good reference.

However, if you want to go beyond 1:1, then I would buy simple, all-manual Nikkor AI-S prime lenses and reverse them.

If you want to buy just 1 good Nikkor AI-S zoom, and use it reversed, I have personally bought, tested, and am in the process of writing a massive article about the 5 most-used Nikkor zooms (for macro), where I get into which is better and why. These lenses are:

  1. Nikon Series E 36-72mm f/3.5 Zoom
  2. Zoom-Nikkor 35-70mm f/3.5 AI-S
  3. Zoom-Nikkor 28-50mm f/3.5 AI-S
  4. Zoom-Nikkor 28-85mm f/3.5-4.5 AI-S
  5. Zoom-Nikkor 25-50mm f/4 AI-S


I will cut to the chase and say the last lens is the highest-quality, but the least-flexible. #s 3 and 4 are the best choices, with 4 being slightly-more flexible, but 3 being slightly higher-quality and much-much easier to use in the field.

In short, these zooms can be enjoyed mounted properly, then flipped where they go from 1:4 all the way up to 3:1.

Interestingly, these lenses render 'warmer' than do Nikkor primes. It will probably be another month before I finish the entire zoom article, whereas the reverse-macro prime article should be finished in 2 weeks.



Luis Cunha wrote:
My work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136118314@N06/albums/with/72157674993795701

Thanks again for your kind help.
Best regards


For some reason your whole link broke at the @ sign ... but it worked when I copied/pasted the whole thing.

Hope my answer helps. I will re-post here when each blog post is finished.



Jul 19, 2017 at 06:52 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Dear John,

thank you so much for such a compreensive reply. Lots of useful information to read.
Looking forward to read your work-in-progress article.
This is good news.

I´m not yet familiarized with Nikon glass, because I´m a Canon (for macro) and Carl Zeiss manual only primes user (for other work), but the reverse option seems a good one. The number of blades are also importante to me to render round bokeh when needed (at least 9 blades).

One thing I noticed is that the smaller the focal length the bigger the magnification in reverse position; Am I right?
Also; how can I achieve 5:1with a reverse lenses? I guess les than 20mm; after reading your article.

Any experiences with Laowa macro lenses?

Thank again for you help.
Indeed; this a very very interesting tópico to me ,-)
Best regards.



Jul 20, 2017 at 09:22 AM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


One more question John ,-)
Between the D810 and D500 what do prefer for macro work and why?
I´m thinking about the D810 even if it´s an older model because of the macro work and every other work I do. I like Full Frame. D810 Dynamic range is the best even against newer cameras from all brands.
Thanks.



Jul 20, 2017 at 09:39 AM
JohnK007
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
Dear John,

thank you so much for such a compreensive reply. Lots of useful information to read.
Looking forward to read your work-in-progress article.
This is good news.


Hi again ... and you bet.



Luis Cunha wrote:
I´m not yet familiarized with Nikon glass, because I´m a Canon (for macro) and Carl Zeiss manual only primes user (for other work), but the reverse option seems a good one. The number of blades are also importante to me to render round bokeh when needed (at least 9 blades).


The Nikkor AI-S lenses are 9-bladed in the 50mm, but 7-bladed in the 28/20mm lenses, I have found that, reversed, the rendering is buttery-smooth ... simply because the DOF is so small. At 1:1, the 9 blades are handier, as the DOF is greater, but at 2:1, 3:1, and 4:1 it's pretty much irrelevant.



Luis Cunha wrote:
One thing I noticed is that the smaller the focal length the bigger the magnification in reverse position; Am I right?
Also; how can I achieve 5:1with a reverse lenses? I guess les than 20mm; after reading your article.


Correct on the first part.

Regarding 5:1, I never shoot this close in the field, and rarely in the studio as well. The closest I can get using reverse-lenses is 4:1, with the 18mm AI-S, with a BR-2A adapter from Nikon + 72-52 adapter from Sensei-PRO.

The limiting factor is the front-thread element of the lens. The Nikon BR-2A has a 52mm thread element, which connects to the standard Nikkor 52mm thread in the front of its AI-S lenses. The 50mm, 35mm, and 28mm AI-S lenses all have this 52mm front thread.

However, the 20mm AI-S has a 62mm front thread, so you need to add a Nikon BR-3 to connect the 62mm thread to the 52mm BR-2A, which then connects to the camera.

The 18mm AI-S has a 72mm front lens thread, and Nikon has no answer for this, which is why I connect with the SenseiPRO 72-52mm adapter.

Beyond 18mm (and with other lens brands) front filter thread can get from 77-95mm, for which there are no simple solutions, without connecting a hodge-podge of adapters together, which encroach on the larger glass also.

So, because shooting at 5x isn't something I do much, and because of the difficulty of piece-mealing to get adapters for the front thread elements, I stop at 4x.



Luis Cunha wrote:
Any experiences with Laowa macro lenses?


No, but I have seen a lot of nice images from them, particularly the 15mm wide.



Luis Cunha wrote:
Thank again for you help.
Indeed; this a very very interesting tópico to me ,-)
Best regards.


Sure ... and me too



Jul 20, 2017 at 10:40 AM
JohnK007
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
One more question John ,-)
Between the D810 and D500 what do prefer for macro work and why?
I´m thinking about the D810 even if it´s an older model because of the macro work and every other work I do. I like Full Frame. D810 Dynamic range is the best even against newer cameras from all brands.
Thanks.


The D810 is a sublime camera, that I use for macro mostly, but the D500 is functionally-superior.

The real drawback to the D810 for ultra-close work is the Live View LCD is terrible in low-light conditions ... which are invariably necessary when you get that close. So unless you're staying under 2:1, or unless you have studio LCD lights in play, the D810's inferior LCD will limit how close you can get in the field. By contrast, the D500's LCD not only is much clearer and brighter, but it also articulates, which really is a help for high-mag macro.

Regarding dynamic range, DR isn't as much an issue in macro shots as it is landscapes. (Take a photo of a multi-dimensional landscape, with subtle color differences in grasses, leaves, etc., and then take one of a macro subject. The file size for the landscape will be double- or triple the size of the macro image, because so much more information and color potential is stored.)

For this reason, and because its rear LCD is both better, and articulates, I would say the D500 would be the camera to use.

That said, I expect Nikon to announce a D850 fairly soon (this month?), and it should have the best of all possible worlds (resolution, huge DR, better/articulating LCD) ... so you might want to hold off until the end of the month to decide

Cheers.



Jul 20, 2017 at 10:46 AM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


John,

thank you very much for the explanation about your use with different lenses and magnification results.
The blades are important but not so much in macro; I agree. Anyway sometimes I can see not-rounded bokeh with my Canon MP-E 65mm because it´s a 1999 design with only 6 blades.

The 5x magnification aspecto was just in comparison with my lenses vs reversed lenses. A 4x magnification is enough for most of the projects. I had to shoot an old TV screen and magnify the image until I catch the real RGB "mesh or web" and I used the 5x magnification. A rare need.

On cameras: the D810 is a very good camera. I can understand the Live View limitations but I´ve the possibility, right now, to buy a new one, here in Europe for €2000,00 (a very nice price and value for that camera). Also have the oportunity to buy a used external recorder/monitor like new for around €200,00/250,00 with Focus peaking, etc; and a very good resolution. In the studio it´s perfect and in the field it isn´t that bad (I mean too big or heavy):
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicvideoassist
This could be a winner mix ,-)

The D500 is one of the best crop sensor cameras available (also the Fuji XT-2) but I prefer a FF sensor for all my work.
In 5 days (25/07/2017) the D820 will be announced and it will be a "bomb"; maybe a FF version of the D500 with nice improvements over the D810; but... will the "queen" of D.R. remain the D810? Maybe .-)
Image quality; a reliable and true complete system, customer support and ergonomy are my main concerns.
I don´t care too much about high ISO, speed, wifi, touch screen, etc.
It´s a camera! Not a gadget ;-)

I´m tired of the Canon sensors limitations, but that´s a personal problem.
Lets wait just 5 days.

Thanks again.
Best.

P.s. do you use your amazing Zeiss and Voightlander wide (15mm) and longer glass (125/135mm) in reverse mode for macro too?







Jul 20, 2017 at 12:40 PM
e6filmuser
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
Any experiences with Laowa macro lenses?


I have the Laowa 15mm wide angle macro. It gives unique results but is tricky to use, very much so with flash, at the higher magnifications. The shortest working distance is less than 5mm!

Some of us here, and elsewhere, are using the Oshiro 2:1 60mm macro. It seems to be a budget version of the Laowa 2:1 60mm macro and gives very good resullt.

Harold



Jul 20, 2017 at 01:01 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Hi e6 .-)
thank you for your words.
How tricky is it the Laowa? Focusing?
The MP-E 65mm is tricky too. I have to use a Novoflex focusing rail, good illumination, tripod, etc. It´s sometimes really tricky to focus without peaking or a bigger/better screen.

You mean this?
http://oshirooptics.com/our-products/oshiro-60mm-f2-8-21-ld-unc-ultra-macro-lens-2/



Jul 20, 2017 at 01:08 PM
e6filmuser
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
Hi e6 .-)
thank you for your words.
How tricky is it the Laowa? Focusing?
The MP-E 65mm is tricky too. I have to use a Novoflex focusing rail, good illumination, tripod, etc. It´s sometimes really tricky to focus without peaking or a bigger/better screen.

You mean this?
http://oshirooptics.com/our-products/oshiro-60mm-f2-8-21-ld-unc-ultra-macro-lens-2/


The problems are much as, I assume, with any fisheye. The main problem is flash when the object is so close to the lens. Flare could easily be a problem with flash. I haven't use mine much, reserving it for suitable subjects. Focusing will depend on which camera/screen you use. I find all ultra-wide lenses tricky to focus because the detail looks so small and I am accustomed to seeing detail easily with macro.

Yes, that is the Oshiro, available in various mounts. I bought mine from Amazon. It is in EOS mount and I find it useful to put an EOS x2 TC behind it for additional working distance and, at a times, additional magnification. It is fully manual.

Harold



Jul 20, 2017 at 02:03 PM
rw11
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Bellows - mine is a PB-5 IIRC

Nikon has perhaps the best FF macro (micro) system.

The R1C1 flash system is xlnt and better than any ringlight.

You will want to find some of the old special purpose micro lens for 5:1 - or you can reverse lenses on the bellows setup.

The 60 is good but overall I prefer the old manual focus lenses. I have a couple of the 55 mm lenses (both compensating and non-compensating - which seem about the same in IQ).

As Nikon brought out newer and newer micro lenses they added ability in the normal range; it seems there was no way to add micro ability, tho some will swear by the Zeiss lenses.

I also use an AF 100 mm for some shots.

2 other great lenses (not updated to AF-S... yet) - I see no insects on your page, but why not branch out to moving subjects...

1. a zoom that goes up to about 180 mm - there was one for sale here last week, and one lucky guy nabbed it before you
2. a 200 mm - which is exemplary

Now that I posted the above... I have to tell you I often use a Panasonic GX85 m43 camera now. I have the Leica macro for it ( 45 mm - 90 equiv. in FF), and it does focus stacking in the body - it is wonderful and very easy to do (4 buttons need to be pushed).

You can get a purpose made program to do focus stacking for the Nikon equipment, but m43 has more DOF to begin with...



Jul 20, 2017 at 02:05 PM
rw11
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


BTW - you have all the focusing rails, tripods, stands etc. that you need, right?


Jul 20, 2017 at 02:07 PM
JohnK007
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
John,

thank you very much for the explanation about your use with different lenses and magnification results.
The blades are important but not so much in macro; I agree. Anyway sometimes I can see not-rounded bokeh with my Canon MP-E 65mm because it´s a 1999 design with only 6 blades.


Yes, back when I was shooting Canon, the MP-E's bokeh was buttery-smooth, just because of the shallow DOF. The same is true when you reverse Nikkor lenses.



Luis Cunha wrote:
The 5x magnification aspecto was just in comparison with my lenses vs reversed lenses. A 4x magnification is enough for most of the projects. I had to shoot an old TV screen and magnify the image until I catch the real RGB "mesh or web" and I used the 5x magnification. A rare need.


Yep. With a D810, going 4x and cropping-close, is better than 99.99% of other cameras (most people use APS-Cs) shooting at 5x.



Luis Cunha wrote:
On cameras: the D810 is a very good camera. I can understand the Live View limitations but I´ve the possibility, right now, to buy a new one, here in Europe for €2000,00 (a very nice price and value for that camera). Also have the oportunity to buy a used external recorder/monitor like new for around €200,00/250,00 with Focus peaking, etc; and a very good resolution. In the studio it´s perfect and in the field it isn´t that bad (I mean too big or heavy):
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicvideoassist
This could be a winner mix ,-)


Yes, if you're talking about the studio, and can provide artificial light, the D810 is going to give you better images than the D500, all day long.

For the field, however, the D500's screen + its reach, make it a good choice ... and the image quality is as good/better than any APS-C ... but not quite what the D810 can do



Luis Cunha wrote:
The D500 is one of the best crop sensor cameras available (also the Fuji XT-2) but I prefer a FF sensor for all my work.
In 5 days (25/07/2017) the D820 will be announced and it will be a "bomb"; maybe a FF version of the D500 with nice improvements over the D810; but... will the "queen" of D.R. remain the D810? Maybe .-)
Image quality; a reliable and true complete system, customer support and ergonomy are my main concerns.
I don´t care too much about high ISO, speed, wifi, touch screen, etc.
It´s a camera! Not a gadget ;-)


We have a similar philosophy



Luis Cunha wrote:
I´m tired of the Canon sensors limitations, but that´s a personal problem.
Lets wait just 5 days.


I went through this same brand-change 2 years ago ... and am very happy with what I have now.

I too am chomping at the bit to see what Nikon releases very soon



Luis Cunha wrote:
Thanks again.
Best.
P.s. do you use your amazing Zeiss and Voightlander wide (15mm) and longer glass (125/135mm) in reverse mode for macro too?


You bet.

Regarding the Zeiss 15mm, I imagine it would reverse to well-passed 5:1. Trouble is 1) the front filter thread is 95mm and there are no reverse-rings to bring this down to 52mm ... and 2) it has a long, rigid built-in hood which prevents the attachment formation. However, Zeiss makes a version of this without the hood, but it's more expensive ... and has no hood for when you need it. If you could piece together a 95 > 77 > 72 > 52 adapter-ring sequence, and not obstruct the actual glass, you could probably achieve a very high reproduction ratio. However, that said, it would be easier just to use a bellows at that point ... and microscope optics.

Regarding the Voigtländer/Zeiss 125/135, reversing them would be no good. A lens over 50mm reverses to less than 1:1. So you wouldn't even have a 1:1 ratio. Therefore, the Voigtländer is used as the 1:1 macro it already is. The Zeiss 135 is a great lens ... but I sold it ... then I bought it back, lol

It only goes 1:4, so it's not a true macro. However, for larger subjects (full-grown mantids, flowers, huge butterflies), it is peerless. I haven't owned it for very long, but it is razor-sharp, and its rendering is Otus-like. Will post some pics as time permits

Cheers.

Edited on Jul 20, 2017 at 02:27 PM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2017 at 02:23 PM
e6filmuser
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Luis Cunha wrote:
My work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136118314@N06/albums/with/72157674993795701


Your subject matter seems very unlike what is typical in this forum, e.g. no live insects. So your equipment requirements may be atypical.

Harold



Jul 20, 2017 at 02:24 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


e6filmuser wrote:
The problems are much as, I assume, with any fisheye. The main problem is flash when the object is so close to the lens. Flare could easily be a problem with flash. I haven't use mine much, reserving it for suitable subjects. Focusing will depend on which camera/screen you use. I find all ultra-wide lenses tricky to focus because the detail looks so small and I am accustomed to seeing detail easily with macro.

Yes, that is the Oshiro, available in various mounts. I bought mine from Amazon. It is in EOS mount and I find it useful to put an
...Show more

Thank you .-)



Jul 20, 2017 at 06:02 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


rw11 wrote:
Bellows - mine is a PB-5 IIRC

Nikon has perhaps the best FF macro (micro) system.

The R1C1 flash system is xlnt and better than any ringlight.

You will want to find some of the old special purpose micro lens for 5:1 - or you can reverse lenses on the bellows setup.

The 60 is good but overall I prefer the old manual focus lenses. I have a couple of the 55 mm lenses (both compensating and non-compensating - which seem about the same in IQ).

As Nikon brought out newer and newer micro lenses they added ability in the normal range; it seems there
...Show more

Thank you very much for your report and suggestions.
Yes (the other post); I use a Novoflex rail, flash, diffusers, tripod, etc. I must, with the MP-E lenses .-)



Jul 20, 2017 at 06:06 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


e6filmuser wrote:
Your subject matter seems very unlike what is typical in this forum, e.g. no live insects. So your equipment requirements may be atypical.

Harold


True. I´m not the regular macro shooter. I use the camera and the macro habilities as a tool (more like a painter; I´m a also a painter and designer) to build my own images, most of the time not related to reality. I´m not interested in reality, neither stacking or "perfect" images. The macro realm is a way to reach and produce art (I hope); images that are a surprise. No matter if they´re abstract or not; it´s the mood and the "drawing" that is important to me.



Jul 20, 2017 at 06:13 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


Thank you John for the all answers .-) Very, very helpful.
Why did you leave Canon?



Jul 20, 2017 at 06:17 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


rw11 wrote:
BTW - you have all the focusing rails, tripods, stands etc. that you need, right?


Considering one of this bellows.
http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/

If I can afford it, one of the Tilt and Shift models .-)
http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/bellows-systems/bellows-attachment-castbal-ts/
http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/bellows-systems/tilt-shift-bellows/

Like the Zeiss glass and others it´s a bit expensive, but it´s very well designed and produced and it´s for life.



Jul 20, 2017 at 06:23 PM
rw11
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Macro from Canon to Nikon beyond 1:1.


go for the tilt shift if you can swing the $$


Jul 20, 2017 at 07:44 PM
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