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Archive 2017 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?

  
 
chez
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p.15 #1 · p.15 #1 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Bottom line, we see these types of threads all the time...the amateur taking away the business from the pro. So rather than joining into a group whine about it...what are you doing to deal with being undercut?

Is your work so poor that someone with a hobby can come and take away your business? I've seen people blame the "ignorant customer" who just wants cheap goods as one of the problems. Are these your customer base...ignorant and cheap? How about educating them on why your product / service is worth the money you think it is...if you can't then blame your sales skills or maybe your lacking product.

If a weekend warrior can come and affect your business in any drastic way...that tells me a lot about your business...and maybe you need to be out of business.

Now let the whining continue as I'm sure the weekend warriors will not decrease...but in fact will increase.

Edited on Dec 14, 2017 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions



Dec 14, 2017 at 12:22 PM
PhilPDX
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p.15 #2 · p.15 #2 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


leethecam wrote:
Perhaps we should have a "I'm terribly keen but don't want to charge" section.


A section called "I'm a pro and love my high horsy" would suffice. :-)

-Phil



Dec 14, 2017 at 12:32 PM
chez
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p.15 #3 · p.15 #3 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


PhilPDX wrote:
A section called "I'm a pro and love my high horsy" would suffice. :-)

-Phil


Yes...the entitled pros who think they should be immune to the technology changing world. Open up your eyes pros or the weekend snotty nosed kid will just pass you by.



Dec 14, 2017 at 12:43 PM
leethecam
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p.15 #4 · p.15 #4 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


PhilPDX wrote:
A section called "I'm a pro and love my high horsy" would suffice. :-)

-Phil


As long as we can have both I'll be happy. But until then...



Dec 14, 2017 at 12:58 PM
leethecam
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p.15 #5 · p.15 #5 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
Bottom line, we see these types of threads all the time...the amateur taking away the business from the pro. So rather than joining into a group whine about it...what are you doing to deal with being undercut?

Is your work so poor that someone with a hobby can come and take away your business? I've seen people blame the "ignorant customer" who just wants cheap goods as one of the problems. Are these your customer base...ignorant and cheap? How about educating them on why your product / service is worth the money you think it is...if you can't then blame
...Show more

My work is darn fine I can assure you.

And there is nothing to say that an an amateur is not as atalented as I am - many are more so.

Talent is not the issue. Payment is. The amateur who gives their work for free because they can and with no regard to how it hurts the professional industry as a whole is undermining a wealth of hard working professionals - just because they want to.

I'm merely suggesting that if an amateur is good, then they charge suitably for their services. We will keep a healthy playing field where talent and hard work is rewarded and no one loses their homes or income. I'm not blessed with a benefactor or other employer to carry my costs.

If an amateur is not providing a professional service due to time limitations (real job gets in the way), or lack of insurance or no backups, or priority to the client - then at least these things are highlighted so the client knows they're notr quite getting the same as a pro.

And I'm asking for a wider view of the world. You know when we all get rightly upset when a large supermarket comes in and kills off a whole bunch of smaller independants by artificially reducing prices to an unsustainable low - just because they can... well it's a similar thing when the low-balling amateur comes along and offers a "pro" service for free.

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. I like to think that morality and care for how society should function matters more than "well I can, so I will."

I owuldn't dream of doing something to put someone out of business just to satisfy my own personal interests. The people I associate with are the same.

And it's not about taking the whole business away. Many businesses are running a tight ship, and skimming the top 10% off their margins can be enough to reduce a business model so that it no longer functions.

The claim is that everyone else can do it so it's just the way things go and I find that appalling. We look to ourselves for what is right not find an escape in what others may be doing.

My product is not lacking. Look me up - you'll find some fine work there. But whilst many clients value quality, dependability and service - many do not. The freebee amateur gives these clients the illusion that all "pros" are the same - but some are cheap or free. The reality is that all "pros" are not the same, but the professional market is sullied by the freebee approach.

It never ceases to amaze when I'm told I should polish up my sales skills, or market myself better, or improve my professional skills, when I get this from people who have never actually had to do such in my profession.

Walk in my shoes for 10 years, and then lecture me about how better I should do things.

Armchair viewing and critiquing is an easy thing to do - doing it... somewhat more tricky.

I'll battle market forces - I have been for 25 years. But let me battle peole with the balls to charge for what they do - or are they so bad they've got to lowball everyone to get any interest.

I don't expect a bricks and mortar shop to beat an internet price, but I have the brains to understand the difference. There is enough of a market out there who don't. And the people who will lowball just to get a whiff of feeding their hobby without regard to how that effects other people - well don't make use use words to describe them.

Remember - some pros only need a small reduction in their income to fold. Are you comfortable being part of that small percentage who'd rather feed their hobby than let a pro keep his margins. I'd hope not.



Dec 14, 2017 at 01:24 PM
chez
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p.15 #6 · p.15 #6 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


I've heard you talk about ignorant customers...that to me indicates your naive view of marketing and sales. Why don't you go educate some of these ignorant customers as to why you are so much better than whatever they use today?

Whenever I hear someone call the customer ignorant...that tells me plenty on their view of sales and marketing and on their customer base as a whole. It's no wonder you are threatened by someone who can come in and low ball your customers away...your ignorant customers.

When I worked as a product manager, I had to continually educate my customer base on why my products ( upwards of $2,000,000 ) are worth their money and why buying from me would improve their business. I had to educate them on why spending over $1,000,000 on a maintenance contract would be beneficial to the customer in the end. I had competition that was much lower priced that the customer kept bringing up...and without education on my services / products...they would have gone with the cheaper product. It's called sales and marketing...not whining.

If an amateur can take away your business...then you just don't have the skills to separate yourself from the amateur and to convince ( educate ) your customer as to why they should purchase from you at a much high price than from someone else. If your product / service cannot be differentiated from an amateur...then you are in big trouble buddy.



Dec 14, 2017 at 01:59 PM
chez
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p.15 #7 · p.15 #7 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


leethecam wrote:
Remember - some pros only need a small reduction in their income to fold. Are you comfortable being part of that small percentage who'd rather feed their hobby than let a pro keep his margins. I'd hope not.


What's this pro doing to better themselves, to expand their knowledge and skill set, to expand their customer base, to promote themselves...or maybe they are just sitting on their asses whining about someone else coming in and taking away their customers. I see too many ( many on these boards ) that sit their complaining and when asked what they are doing about it...silence.

I have zero pity for someone that feels they are entitled to their work. I don't care if you have been in that business for 25 years...if you just sit on your laurels and expect the world to stay the same as it was 25 years ago...then maybe you should be out of this business.



Dec 14, 2017 at 02:04 PM
notherenow
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p.15 #8 · p.15 #8 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


The best photographer I know had a high end studio on the main street here and was nationally known.

When he tried to sell it to retire, there were no takers not one so just closed down. A decade earlier he probably would have had a bidding war to buy it had he tried selling. That studio has been gone for a decade now and it is just going to keep happening.

In this small city you are competing against
A) Many years of graduating photographers a number of which stay here.
B) Others who have moved here, often for a year or two (sometimes as spouses of defence force personnel).
C) Former newspaper shooters let go.
D) Photographers from other locations coming here for a shoot.
E) Current undergraduate students to help them live
F) A small number of post graduate students.
G) Some very good lecturers who are of course practising photographers themselves.
H) those with a mobile phone taking the shot for themselves (Instagram is being used more and more as an advertising place and the photos from there are used in print- even the newspaper sometimes sources photos from Instagram).

It is after all that you get the man with a cam as a hobby.

There has ALWAYS been amateurs but it is just getting easier by the day to not NEED a pro. Anyone who has put up a shingle since I started was always entering the world that I am in and that applied to others in the past (and anyone who was a paid shooter before I started and is still there is not worried about me in any way shape or form).

I agree that it is not necessarily the best photographer that succeeds but that is part of business.

How about this. I am just an old amateur who mainly just shoots jpegs and gives photos as taken. I post the odd shot on Instagram. Often the shots I post can not be done easily by others because of what I use and it seems no/few pros locally use similar (EG Canon 17mm TS-E for wide angle shifted shots).
If someone sees that photo on Instagram and wants to use it, what do they do? Hire a pro who can not do it without buying/renting the lens (no local rentals). A pro with the 17 will put more time and effort into it and do better than me but if they are not there, I guess in your world I don't give them/take those shots so no one does.

A job (any job) exists because there is a need and a market and you do that job with all the existing competition as is, paid or not. If the market evaporates or the need vanishes, then the job is no more- happens all the time.

I lost a part time casual job a few weeks ago because the business closed, it should probably have closed a couple of years ago but I got two years more out of it than I had any right to expect. It went because of technology advances and competition meant the need was not there anymore so the market vanished.

Well technology advances in photography are now at a exponential rate making it easier for anyone by the day (less need) and that follows the market is shrinking.

Photographers will lose their jobs if they are not needed, doesn't matter what the reason.

I wish any decent person well in their chosen job (not just photography) but it isn't my problem or fault if it doesn't last.



Dec 14, 2017 at 02:09 PM
leethecam
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p.15 #9 · p.15 #9 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


I guess in my world, where I can appreciate how you have unique material that a pro would not have had opportunity to take those pictures...

I would say you should not give them but licence them at market rate. (Given their nature, I'm thinking not microstock rates).

When images are given away it furthers the illusion that images have no value. It erodes our craft and hurts the wider professional market who rely on reasonable returns for their toils.

You've already taken the shot, so assuming it is of good quality ther'd possibly be no need for a pro to duplicate the work - even though we'd love it if we had the opportunity.

So you get first bite at supplying the image - just do it at a fair price. Fair to the buyer and fair to the pros who might normally take the shot. Base the price on hire of specific kit requirements, time taken and useage.

Even if it is required for non-commercial use, it has a market value. (I buy my Cornflakes for my own personal use, but they still have a cost from my shop. You camera had a cost and your T&S lens wasn't cheap - evcen though intended for amateur use).

If the market baulks at the cost, then they don't really need it. Want and need are often confused.

If a pro would do a better job then that would be reflected in the licencing rate. But don't give upir efforts away cheap or for free.

The market is only being eroded by those who shoose to erode it. At that point we all have to decide if we personally want to be associated with the problem or whether we want in some small part to stand above the dengration of an entire industry by making our product seem worthless.

That's all any pro would ask.



Dec 14, 2017 at 03:13 PM
notherenow
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p.15 #10 · p.15 #10 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


leethecam wrote:
I would say you should not give them but licence them at market rate. (Given their nature, I'm thinking not microstock rates).

When images are given away it furthers the illusion that images have no value. It erodes our craft and hurts the wider professional market who rely on reasonable returns for their toils.

You've already taken the shot, so assuming it is of good quality ther'd possibly be no need for a pro to duplicate the work - even though we'd love it if we had the opportunity.
.


Again, I am not interested in making money from my photography, it is purely a hobby for me and has nothing to do with anyone else. If it became something I HAD to do I would stop.

Photography does not solely exist for people to make money (if you CAN make money, more power to you).

I have offered my TS-E to a few pro photographers lately at sites I have been using it at.

Obviously we are coming from very different perspectives.

Happy shooting (paid or not).




Dec 14, 2017 at 04:39 PM
leethecam
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p.15 #11 · p.15 #11 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


And the cry that nothing anyone does, really effects anything anyone ales does.

I lose faith in the world a loittle every day sometimes. And this rather pointless discussion reinforces my belief that to some, they simply can't appreciate how actions can have a derogitaory effect on others.

I pray you are never on the receiving end of someone's actions that makes you poorer or less secure.

There is no reasoning here. There are some to whom the right to do what they want will supercede how that may impact a wider world. I'm simply coming from making the competitive world a fairer platform, so yes we are coming from a different perspective.

Time to avoid taliking with amateurs methinks. The collective mindset of some is disapointing. there seems to be a lack of understanding of a more comlex issue than what they want to do to satisfy their own personal desires.



Dec 14, 2017 at 06:02 PM
chez
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p.15 #12 · p.15 #12 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


leethecam wrote:
Time to avoid taliking with amateurs methinks. The collective mindset of some is disapointing. there seems to be a lack of understanding of a more comlex issue than what they want to do to satisfy their own personal desires.


Yep...time to retreat to your "I'm a pro and love my high horsy" forum where only the exclusive and more importantly...people that think just like you...are allowed entrance.

See ya...



Dec 14, 2017 at 06:13 PM
Mikehit
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p.15 #13 · p.15 #13 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
I've heard you talk about ignorant customers...that to me indicates your naive view of marketing and sales. Why don't you go educate some of these ignorant customers as to why you are so much better than whatever they use today?

Whenever I hear someone call the customer ignorant...that tells me plenty on their view of sales and marketing and on their customer base as a whole. It's no wonder you are threatened by someone who can come in and low ball your customers away...your ignorant customers.

When I worked as a product manager, I had to continually educate my customer base
...Show more

Pure BS. Customers are ignorant so bear with me why I say this.
As a professional in any business we obsess about what we turn out - I have even seen comments from seasoned pros about how they owe it to the client to use the best equipment to give them the best possible product. Yet all the client wants is a product that is good enough for the purpose. Medium Format gear gives a better image quality than 35mm gear - but 35mm does the job at much less cost. Many pros are now finding that micro4/3 give good enough quality for the client in a smaller, more convenient and cheaper package.
That is it in a nutshell

So the client is not 'ignorant' of their needs but are ignorant in many cases of the superior quality of what more expensive gear and a more experienced professional can produce. A lot of times the quality output of a seasoned professiioal is not what they can turn out under good conditions but what they can turn out despite the conditions. A contact recently put this in perspective: he was booked to do a wedding at a church with magnificent stained glass windows but the day before the wedding that stained glass was undergoing renovation so on the spur of the moment he used his experience to adapt. You may say this falls under the banner you describe but clients to not think about 'what if it goes wrong' - they look at the output you can produce.

So when the wedding market plummets you have umpteen photographers looking for new photographic markets and with simple supply-and-demand you have more people chasing the same number of jobs which drives the costs down.

You were able to find off cheaper competition. Well whoopee for you. A vast majority of photographers are not that fortunate so don't be so arrogant as to turn round and criticise them saying 'stop whining and try doing something new'. Software designers can work over the internet - a photographer often cannot. For all you know they have tried something new and now it failed because of local conditions. Perhaps they don't live in an area with high-value clients who appreciate what a seasoned professional can bring to them irrespective of cost.

I agree with the 'adapt or die' ethos but that is quite different to criticising people who state how hard life is becoming because of amateurs giving their products away.



Dec 14, 2017 at 06:15 PM
chez
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p.15 #14 · p.15 #14 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


I totally agree many customers are ignorant as to why your service is worth more than the weekend warrior...so it's YOUR responsibility to educate these ignorant customers. Failing to do that...well they'll just go with the weekend warrior.

Now who is to blame, the ignorant customer or the photographer sitting on his hind crying the weekend warrior stole another client when they could have been out there educating the customer on their superior service.

Running a business, any business, is mostly sales and marketing...not just pushing the shutter button.



Dec 14, 2017 at 06:23 PM
notherenow
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p.15 #15 · p.15 #15 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


leethecam wrote:
And the cry that nothing anyone does, really effects anything anyone ales does.

I lose faith in the world a loittle every day sometimes. And this rather pointless discussion reinforces my belief that to some, they simply can't appreciate how actions can have a derogitaory effect on others.

I pray you are never on the receiving end of someone's actions that makes you poorer or less secure.

Time to avoid taliking with amateurs methinks. The collective mindset of some is disapointing. there seems to be a lack of understanding of a more comlex issue than what they want to do to satisfy their
...Show more

I lost faith in the world a long time ago but it comes back now and again at odd times.

In case you missed it, I have had jobs end on me through no fault of my own on many occasions, the latest less than two months ago.

I am old and had retired but needed and wanted to work part time again. Now I work just to get by and would likely be the poorest person posting here (I am far happier now than I ever was working full time, just a lot poorer). I don't whinge about others having more than me or that I lost my job for the umpteenth time starting with being a Navy Jet fighter electrical system sailor in a Navy that suddenly didn't have any Jet fighters more than thirty years ago. and up to working in a betting shop that closed in November this year (lowest paying but best job I had in many ways- who needs to visit a shop now with the internet available 24/7).

Why is it you don't seem to care about MY wants/likes/needs? It seems to be you think a job has to be what you want and not what the customers want and without things that are going to happen regardless. That ain't how the world works.

If there is a need, then there CAN be a job but it has to be what the customers want and it has to be based on what happens in the real world. If what you provide is unique, then customer service can be crappy (service with a snarl) but if there is competition, then that snarl is not going to help and nor will whining about the likes of me.

I am no threat but if you think I am you are already way behind.

Again, happy shooting to you.



Dec 14, 2017 at 07:37 PM
glort
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p.15 #16 · p.15 #16 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


leethecam wrote:
I do wonder on occasion, how a Pro Digital Corner section of the forum has so many opinions by those who are not pros.


Now there is the take away of the thread right there!!

Incredibly ironic when I read a recent quote of one of the main non pro lecturers telling someone else, " You have never done it so you don't understand".

Perhaps we should have a "I'm terribly keen but don't want to charge" section.

We could put that right next to the " How much should I charge?" and the " It's ok for me to fluck an industry becase I'm having fun" sections.

I think the pros who need to earn a living in photography should be banned from those sections and the " I know what I'm talking about even though I have never worked in the game" amateurs should be barred from this part of the forum.

Should make for much more agreeable conversation.




Dec 15, 2017 at 03:10 AM
glort
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p.15 #17 · p.15 #17 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Mikehit wrote:
Pure BS. Customers are ignorant so bear with me why I say this.


The notion of a small, one man business changing the mindset of the population in their buying behaviors is as ridiculous as it is flawed.

If it were so easy to educate clients, why did anyone here ever have to change their jobs and move on as they make so much of?
Why didn't THEY just "Educate " their clients and keep doing what they were doing??





Dec 15, 2017 at 03:22 AM
Mikehit
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p.15 #18 · p.15 #18 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
I totally agree many customers are ignorant as to why your service is worth more than the weekend warrior...so it's YOUR responsibility to educate these ignorant customers. Failing to do that...well they'll just go with the weekend warrior.

Now who is to blame, the ignorant customer or the photographer sitting on his hind crying the weekend warrior stole another client when they could have been out there educating the customer on their superior service.

Running a business, any business, is mostly sales and marketing...not just pushing the shutter button.


You are assuming the photographer is sitting on their backside and crying about the weekend warrior instead of looking for new work. Most of them are out looking for new work and talking about the additional work needed to merely stand still with a combination of shrinking market and dropping prices for the work they do get.
Sometimes your assumptions are facile.



Dec 15, 2017 at 06:03 AM
dmacmillan
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p.15 #19 · p.15 #19 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
Yep...time to retreat to your "I'm a pro and love my high horsy" forum where only the exclusive and more importantly...people that think just like you...are allowed entrance.
See ya...

Chez, help me remember when you worked as a full time pro. I don't recall ever reading about you making a living with photography.

If you have not worked as a full time pro, it seems you have a lot of strong opinions regarding a subject with which you have had no first hand experience. Also, you seem to be making a lot of general and specific assumptions regarding full time professional photographers.





Dec 15, 2017 at 08:45 AM
chez
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p.15 #20 · p.15 #20 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Mikehit wrote:
You are assuming the photographer is sitting on their backside and crying about the weekend warrior instead of looking for new work. Most of them are out looking for new work and talking about the additional work needed to merely stand still with a combination of shrinking market and dropping prices for the work they do get.
Sometimes your assumptions are facile.


My assumptions come from me asking the whining pro's what they are doing to combat their loss of revenue due to the amateurs taking away customers and all I hear is whining and no concrete actions. This leads me to believe they are doing nothing new.



Dec 15, 2017 at 10:04 AM
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