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Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?
  
 
rw11
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p.11 #1 · p.11 #1 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Dare I say it?

...Krockwell



Aug 02, 2017 at 04:54 AM
Kory Lidstrom
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p.11 #2 · p.11 #2 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
Yep and it's those pros that have the door closed on their faces and are too ignorant to open another door but instead whine all day that I get tired of. Move on as you can do beans about someone giving away their photos. Or you can continue to whine about it.


Late to the discussion here, but making money from photgraphy courses, workshops, tours, holidays, etc. is not the same thing as making money from the actual sale of your art. I've done lots of tours for both my own company and as an assistant to one of the biggest nature photogs in the world. In addition, several other big-time photogs that run tours are friends of mine. And you know what we all agree on?

Running photography workshops/tours, etc is not the same thing as being a photographer. And, it's hard work and can really burn you out.

Yes, there is money to be made there, sometimes lots of money. But it's not the same thing as making money by actually selling your images in the form of prints, licensing, etc. Instead of being a photographer, you become a photography teacher. Close, but still totally different in many ways.

It's gotten to the point that several of the heavy hitters I'm talking about -- and I guarantee you they are people you know, some of whom post on this very forum -- are sick to death of running tours, but feel trapped because it's the only real way for a nature photographer to make a good living anymore. Why? Because, as many in this thread have stated, amateurs who give their work away for free are ruining the industry. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free, even if the milk is of poorer quality?

So, yes, you are correct when you say "One door closes, another opens". But, those doors lead to different places, so it's really a moot point.

The bottom line is this: if you don't think that amateurs undercutting pros is hurting the industry, you're deluding yourself.

This debate has been ongoing for many years since the advent of digital. And, it always seems to be the non-pros saying it's not a problem. Funny, because every full time pro I know says the opposite. Every. Single. One. Who are you gonna believe? The guy that's dedicated his life to photograpghy and is an expert on the industry? Or the amateur?



Dec 06, 2017 at 07:34 AM
chez
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p.11 #3 · p.11 #3 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Kory Lidstrom wrote:
Late to the discussion here, but making money from photgraphy courses, workshops, tours, holidays, etc. is not the same thing as making money from the actual sale of your art. I've done lots of tours for both my own company and as an assistant to one of the biggest nature photogs in the world. In addition, several other big-time photogs that run tours are friends of mine. And you know what we all agree on?

Running photography workshops/tours, etc is not the same thing as being a photographer. And, it's hard work and can really burn you out.

Yes, there
...Show more

Oh I believe the amateur has impacted the traditional photographer...so what are you to do...whine or look at different ways to make a buck. Don't think the photography industry is the only one that has been changed over the years. Nothing new here. I've had 5 different jobs in my career, each somewhat related but in different industries...3 of these moves where forced on me by changes in the industry. I've never whined about these changes as technology moves on and also the global world with much cheaper labor opened up taking many established jobs off shore.

Photography has hit that plateau and now the adaptable will survive and the others will fade away. Consistently reminiscing about how it was in the good old days and blaming others for the changes puts you squarely into the latter camp.



Dec 06, 2017 at 12:39 PM
PhilPDX
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p.11 #4 · p.11 #4 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Kory Lidstrom wrote:
...if you don't think that amateurs undercutting pros is hurting the industry, you're deluding yourself.


If you are unable to compete with an amateur, you shouldn't be a pro. I agree with Chez here: you either adapt or you will go the way of the Dodo.

-Phil



Dec 07, 2017 at 05:17 AM
rodmcwha
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p.11 #5 · p.11 #5 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


rstoddard11 wrote:
Are people who know how to cook a mean pot of spaghetti eroding the value of professional chefs?

Just because you have a funny hat on your head and an apron doesn't mean that my grandma can't bake cookies better than you.

Life goes on.


It would be if you were sitting by the restaurant door passing it out for free.
Oh by the way, can grandma make enough to of those great cookies to feed a new york restaurant, every day, (and make enough of a profit to stay open?)
Cute analogies-shows that you haven't even paused to consider the facts!



Dec 07, 2017 at 07:08 AM
glort
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p.11 #6 · p.11 #6 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
I've never whined about these changes


Pigs arse!
You're the guy that whines about the weight difference between an SLR and a mirror less system and that an SLR is too heavy for you!
If that's something you would complain about, at length, you surely complained about loosing your job... just like any other normal person would......

I have a mate that is the polar opposite of me, calm, quiet, non confrontational and takes things as they come. He lost his job, twice, due to outsourcing to other countries doing lesser work cheaper and he complained.

To think anyone would loose their job by people undercutting them and come home all cheery and happy and tell the mrs "Don't know how we are going to pay the bills next month cause I just got shitcanned because someone else is doing a half arsed job cheaper than I am so they gave the work to him. Not to worry, I'll just go and re train to find a job doing something else. Mortgage and bills for food etc can wait till I am re qualified in something new and another job comes along for a middle age person starting out with the experience of a teenage kid." is laughable.

Loosing you work/ income to some scabs because they do shit work but cheaper would upset anyone.... Just like it does the PROFESSIONAL shooters.



Dec 07, 2017 at 11:13 AM
glort
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p.11 #7 · p.11 #7 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


PhilPDX wrote:
If you are unable to compete with an amateur, you shouldn't be a pro. I agree with Chez here: you either adapt or you will go the way of the Dodo.

-Phil


Let me take a wild stab in the dark here.....

You are not a working pro earning their full time living as a photographer are you?
EVER been a full time working pro?
Didn't think so.

Real easy to have a devil may care attitude when your job is safe and your only interest in something is playing tiddly winks on the weekend.

Did you even read any of the previous comments? Seeing you and Chez are so like minded, maybe you could answer the question I asked him which he had no comeback for...

Tell us how YOU have overcome amaterus undercutting your business and charging a fraction of what you have and how you did that with some real world case examples of what you did.
I pride myself on being smarter than teh average bear when it comes to business. I have a mate with 3 degrees in business and a brother in law that travels the world specialising and working on developing businesses from one man operations to small corporations and neither of them have the answer either.

I'm sure you aren't another Monday night quarter back sitting in front of the TV that's never played a game in their life so please, tell all us great unwashed how YOU over came this problem and what YOU did strategy wise.


When you have worked for decades perfecting your craft, establishing your name and business and depending on something to put food on the table and some arseholes come and undermine that and there is nothing you can do, it's not so easy just to say " Oh well" and just move on.

But do tell us what YOU did to get round this problem in whatever YOU did that was the same or similar situation.




Dec 07, 2017 at 11:26 AM
chez
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p.11 #8 · p.11 #8 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


glort wrote:
Pigs arse!
You're the guy that whines about the weight difference between an SLR and a mirror less system and that an SLR is too heavy for you!
If that's something you would complain about, at length, you surely complained about loosing your job... just like any other normal person would......

I have a mate that is the polar opposite of me, calm, quiet, non confrontational and takes things as they come. He lost his job, twice, due to outsourcing to other countries doing lesser work cheaper and he complained.

To think anyone would loose their job by people undercutting them
...Show more

Sorry to blow you big bubble...but I never whined about my jobs...just moved along as my family depended on me. Now a guy like you...I can see you standing in the city square whining you face off...as you have done so many times here on FM.



Dec 07, 2017 at 01:58 PM
PhilPDX
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p.11 #9 · p.11 #9 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


glort wrote:
Let me take a wild stab...


Yep, an attempted stab it is. Why so aggressive towards other people? Is that how you run your photography business?

No, I'm not a pro photographer (only a measly semi pro), but I've been running my own software company for a very long time already. My field has changed so significantly over the years that anyone who couldn't adapt has gone out of business or was forced to sell off their assets. If you can't come up with a new and/or better product than your competition, then you are simply toast. That's true for my sector, that's true for yours. So stop being a drama queen and go back to work.

-Phil



Dec 07, 2017 at 03:35 PM
chez
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p.11 #10 · p.11 #10 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


PhilPDX wrote:
Yep, an attempted stab it is. Why so aggressive towards other people? Is that how you run your photography business?

No, I'm not a pro photographer (only a measly semi pro), but I've been running my own software company for a very long time already. My field has changed so significantly over the years that anyone who couldn't adapt has gone out of business or was forced to sell off their assets. If you can't come up with a new and/or better product than your competition, then you are simply toast. That's true for my sector, that's true for yours. So
...Show more

Well said Phil. It seems like some photographers feel their profession is somehow different. If they’d open their eyes and minds, they would see every industry or professional is in constant change and if one is too stubborn or blinded to see change occurring, they will be out of a job or business.

Blaiming the amateur photographer for their troubles is the 1st step of being out of business. Not changing your practices over the years is another step out that door.



Dec 07, 2017 at 05:09 PM
 

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Kory Lidstrom
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p.11 #11 · p.11 #11 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


PhilPDX wrote:
If you are unable to compete with an amateur, you shouldn't be a pro. I agree with Chez here: you either adapt or you will go the way of the Dodo.

-Phil


You COMPLETELY missed my point. Might wanna brush up on your reading comprehension skills.



Dec 07, 2017 at 07:30 PM
glort
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p.11 #12 · p.11 #12 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
Sorry to blow you big bubble...but I never whined about my jobs...just moved along as my family depended on me.


Yep, that was it, didn't say a thing, just had a laugh you didn't know how the family was going to eat next month and laughed it off.
Sure you did!

Still waiting to hear what you did and your strategy for overcoming being undercut by unfair competition. You went from software engineer to what? Street sweeper? Is that your idea of moving onto something different?



Now a guy like you...I can see you standing in the city square whining you face off...as you have done so many times here on FM.


There is a big difference between whining and stating fact you want to play hero by denying problems people face. I'll bet my backside you have been at some time one of the people that has been responsible for screwing this industry .

Before talking about people whining here, best you check your own posting history I'd say.



Dec 07, 2017 at 10:58 PM
chez
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p.11 #13 · p.11 #13 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


glort wrote:
Yep, that was it, didn't say a thing, just had a laugh you didn't know how the family was going to eat next month and laughed it off.
Sure you did!

Still waiting to hear what you did and your strategy for overcoming being undercut by unfair competition. You went from software engineer to what? Street sweeper? Is that your idea of moving onto something different?



There is a big difference between whining and stating fact you want to play hero by denying problems people face. I'll bet my backside you have been at some time one of the
...Show more

Glort...you are one grumpy guy who just loves to put people down. I won't play your game as you seem to enjoy it too much and I'd rather watch paint dry.

Keep up the whining...I'm sure you will get a crowd at the town square tonight.




Dec 07, 2017 at 11:09 PM
glort
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p.11 #14 · p.11 #14 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


If you can't come up with a new and/or better product than your competition, then you are simply toast.

Again, theory that does not stand up to reality.

I'm glad it's so easy though.
Tell us, exactly what new wonderful and better products one could come up with Shooting sports or events say that would overcome people like you whom have a full time job to fall back on from coming along and selling their work at a price that is less than their cost of production "because they like taking pictures" so as the full time shooter could still make a Buck from it?

Maybe you offered to sweep the floor for the organisers at the end or..... ??
Let us know what you did to overcome that as an example. We have heard enough of the theory and BS, time to back it up with some real world examples that us " Whiners" can learn from and apply.
I'm sure you are keen to do that so as to show how clever YOU have been and not be though of as full of BS but no real experience or knowledge.


That's true for my sector, that's true for yours. So stop being a drama queen and go back to work.

-Phil


That's great!
I look forward to the practical examples of what you have done so I and others can apply it to what we are doing since it's so similar and transferable in practice.

BTW, why aren't YOU a full time shooter? You like taking pics obviously, you and Chez say it's just a matter of moving on and can be done so why aren't YOU shooting full time?

Seems like the thing that makes me a drama queen is calling people like you out that have never been there or done it but dismiss those that are facing the problem yet can't put up a single example of what you have done or how to overcome the problem instead of just dismissing those that discuss it.



Dec 07, 2017 at 11:19 PM
glort
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p.11 #15 · p.11 #15 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
Glort...you are one grumpy guy who just loves to put people down. I won't play your game as you seem to enjoy it too much and I'd rather watch paint dry.

Keep up the whining...I'm sure you will get a crowd at the town square tonight.



Yep, so still not one single example of what you did which you say is so easy, just more talk and putting down any view different to yours with nothing to back it up.

Never expected anything less from you and I sure don't expect anything less from those that are equally full of talk but have never been in the real world to know and understand what the real problems and difficulties the people that are doing it face.

Just move on folks, that's the sage advise from the people with other full time incomes who just like playing Photo tiddly winks on the weekend.
Not one bit of practical advise how they have done that but to not do what they say is so easy whining and we wouldn't want to upset their idealistic world would we?

If these people saying " Just move on, I did" could give one example of what they keep SAYIG they did, they might have SOME credibility and not actually be the biggest whingers themselves having no stake in the game or risk to their incomes to justify their involvement in the discussion in the first place.



Dec 07, 2017 at 11:27 PM
Mikehit
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p.11 #16 · p.11 #16 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


PhilPDX wrote:
Yep, an attempted stab it is. Why so aggressive towards other people? Is that how you run your photography business?

No, I'm not a pro photographer (only a measly semi pro), but I've been running my own software company for a very long time already. My field has changed so significantly over the years that anyone who couldn't adapt has gone out of business or was forced to sell off their assets. If you can't come up with a new and/or better product than your competition, then you are simply toast. That's true for my sector, that's true for yours. So
...Show more

I can see where you are coming from but there is a difference in software and photography. With software you can apply those skills to gaming, security, IT support, and a whole host of areas that are expanding. With photography you are selling.....photographs. Nothing more - and unlike software the photography market is shrinking partly because people believe they can do it themselves: software still relies on specialist knowledge but anyone can pick up a mobile phone and say 'why do I need to spend $500 hiring a pro'. Everyone with a cameraphone is a photographer, not every one with a computer is a programmer or software designer. A photographer can 'adapt' by going into teaching or workshops but at the end of the day there is nowhere near the level of alternatives and that adds to the stress of these changes.

And before you go further in decrying those bemoaning the change, I am pretty sure many of them are adapting and learning other things, even changing careers but it does not mean the change is any less stressful for them.



Dec 08, 2017 at 08:47 AM
chez
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p.11 #17 · p.11 #17 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Mikehit wrote:
I can see where you are coming from but there is a difference in software and photography. With software you can apply those skills to gaming, security, IT support, and a whole host of areas that are expanding. With photography you are selling.....photographs. Nothing more - and unlike software the photography market is shrinking partly because people believe they can do it themselves: software still relies on specialist knowledge but anyone can pick up a mobile phone and say 'why do I need to spend $500 hiring a pro'. Everyone with a cameraphone is a photographer, not every one with
...Show more

Can you not apply your photography skills into different genres such as wedding, portraits, commercial, advertising etc..., just like applying software skills into different types of software. Isn't this the same?

Also, over the years there has been a big impact by off shore software developers, with many large software houses either completely moving offshore or greatly relying on offshore development. This has hit the software developer greatly by loss of North American jobs to lower wages.



Dec 08, 2017 at 01:51 PM
jecottrell
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p.11 #18 · p.11 #18 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


glort wrote:
If these people saying " Just move on, I did" could give one example of what they keep SAYIG they did...


Wasn't you that said:
glort wrote:
Great idea! Have the guy show all his methods so everyone else can copy them and he looses the advantage...




glort wrote:
...they might have SOME credibility...


That's rich.



Dec 08, 2017 at 02:05 PM
rstoddard11
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p.11 #19 · p.11 #19 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


rodmcwha wrote:
It would be if you were sitting by the restaurant door passing it out for free.
Oh by the way, can grandma make enough to of those great cookies to feed a new york restaurant, every day, (and make enough of a profit to stay open?)
Cute analogies-shows that you haven't even paused to consider the facts!


Just because my opinion does not match yours does not mean that I didn't consider the facts.

Certainly if what they were passing out for free outweighed the alternate option, I would be content and that would be MY choice. Its called free will. However, if what the for pay alternative offered was truly a better experience, then we would have true competition and I again could make my own choice as an independent human, hopefully without the judgement of insecure individuals who use photography to give themselves a sense of self worth. More often than not , they would be happy with my choice as I also think most free products are lacking. What irony.

Luckily for me most bickering sessions over any topic where people are trying to attack others for their opinion just sounds like whining babies to me. I choose mostly to not listen. When I foolishly state my opinion, I more often than not have to endure being derided by someone with nothing better to do.



Dec 08, 2017 at 02:31 PM
glort
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p.11 #20 · p.11 #20 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


jecottrell wrote:
Wasn't you that said:



That's rich.


Not as rich as your inability, deliberate or through ignorance, to see the two are completely different things.

I'll spell it out for you seeing you are having trouble with the concepts.

One is an example of something someone did in the past to progress from one field to another that no one else here is doing and they are now not either.

The other is divulging current commercial practices from which they have created success where others are failing and would be a real danger to undermine their active business.

It would behove you to understand the concepts and acute differences thereof before getting on your high horse and falling off on your arse.



Dec 08, 2017 at 02:58 PM
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