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Pre-order: Sony A9
  
 
AGeoJO
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p.29 #1 · p.29 #1 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
It isn't about the camera, which is probably great, and it wouldn't have been the lenses either except for one thing:
On Sony's home page for this camera, they show almost exclusively images of outdoor sports that require those long lenses that aren't there yet. They give the impression of a system that doesn't really exist. Amateurs will buy it to get the latest, greatest, and most of them wouldn't buy those long, fast primes anyway. Guy will buy one too and others with similar needs to his. It's called GAS, isn't it

But for someone like me, who
...Show more

Please feel free to check out this video: https://youtu.be/TQnj4Pt8F6k and scroll down to 11:20 or so.



Apr 21, 2017 at 04:21 PM
ecarlino
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p.29 #2 · p.29 #2 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
But for someone like me, who actually shoot motor sports in daylight and sometimes in rain, a 10 year old D2Xs does more or less the same job. It's even weather sealed, proven over many years of heavy use.


why do you keep repeating that it isn't weather sealed - in 1 quick google search i found someone that was reviewing the camera that said this:

Sony is claiming the a9 is fully weather-sealed, which is a term they’ve backed off from before opting for “weather resistant.”



Apr 21, 2017 at 04:27 PM
snapsy
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p.29 #3 · p.29 #3 · Pre-order: Sony A9


molson wrote:
Does this mean the A9 will use stopped-down focusing for all lenses, and not just the GM lenses? I can't imagine they would be opening and closing the aperture 60 times per second. And if it does focus everything at the shooting aperture, that doesn't bode well for shooting at small apertures in low light...


That's a good question. According to Sony they stop down the lens during focusing on the A7 series partly to reduce shutter lag (along with correcting for focus shift). There wouldn't be a lag issue in burst shooting after the first frame so I don't know which way Sony went on this for 20fps.



Apr 21, 2017 at 04:29 PM
mttran
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p.29 #4 · p.29 #4 · Pre-order: Sony A9


molson wrote:
Does this mean the A9 will use stopped-down focusing for all lenses, and not just the GM lenses? I can't imagine they would be opening and closing the aperture 60 times per second. And if it does focus everything at the shooting aperture, that doesn't bode well for shooting at small apertures in low light...


I would love to see this as a user enable/disable w/ frame number(s) option to open up many application in still AE & AF stacking.



Apr 21, 2017 at 04:29 PM
snapsy
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p.29 #5 · p.29 #5 · Pre-order: Sony A9


nandadevieast wrote:
Finally, Sony. ND app will use e-shutter perhaps.


This needs more love



Apr 21, 2017 at 04:37 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.29 #6 · p.29 #6 · Pre-order: Sony A9


It is very interesting to read everyone's impression of this camera. My own view is that this camera makes a very serious run at a pretty big piece of the pro market and will be enticing to quite a few amateurs as well. For the wedding/portrait and many photo journalists this will be a quite compelling camera. I think the killer feature is the silent shutter that looks like it has a ton of capability. We don't know the actual readout speed, but 1/250 seems like a good guess/estimate. At that speed most of the problems, if not all the problems, of a silent shutter should be solved. I am guessing there will still be a problem or two because they included a mechanical shutter. Maybe they did this just in case as a safety blanket, but I would think there must be one or two things the mechanical shutter does better. The success of this shutter is crucial for the camera, because it will change how many pros work. At weddings, at performances, at many events one can simply taken different pictures if you can go silent. I think a couple of years from now we will think of a silent shutter for these events like many of us think of live view for landscape shooting--we just wouldn't consider a camera without it. Sure we could and did shoot without the feature, but it is just too useful and changes the way we work that it is a must have for any camera purchase.
The silent shutter will also be a boon for many amateurs. Street shooters are going to love it. I think many wildlife shooters will love it too, and combined with the new 100-400 GM this camera will make a very compelling combo for wildlife either as an addition to a Canon system with big glass or as a different way to shoot wildlife. Get closer and don't disturb them. It also will be great for other simple situations. For example, my dad hates having his picture taken. He thwarts almost every effort at doing so, and demands when I get one shot before he sticks his hand in front of the camera to delete whatever shot I got. I have managed a few over the years, but he is a royal pain. A silent shutter would be very helpful to shoot someone like him without him actively trying to ruin the picture. So, I think this camera is getting a lot of buzz and will be a success if the silent shutter works well in most situations.
That said the AF which looks quite improved has to be up to snuff too. I expect it to be better in some ways, but worse in others to DSLRs. It won't match performance and it will depend on what people care most about whether they like it more than, as much as or not nearly as much as Canikon DSLRs. AF and investment will keep the big too in the game for quite some time, but if they don't develop a silent shutter I expect that wedding and event photographers will almost all move away in time.
I also have some thoughts about what I think this all means for upcoming Sony cameras. The first thing to keep in mind is the silent shutter is dependent on readout speed and a high resolution sensor will have a lower readout speed. This very fast silent shutter should not be expected in a higher megapixel camera for a number of years. Sure you can have a 50mp camera or so at 10 fps, but it won't have the readout speed that is necessary for the silent shutter. So for now I don't expect a A9r. Instead expect a A7 III with as Fred suggests a 36mp sensor with on sensor PDAF, and an electronic first curtain. This camera will be a phenomenal value at about $2,000. Sure it won't have an electronic shutter, its AF will be pretty far behind the A9 (but probably only a little, if any, behind the A7r II), and I doubt it will be very capable for video, but it will be a great camera and a great backup for the A9. I expect that camera late this year. Then next year sometime we can expect an A7r III with a new sensor. They could go a lot of ways with this sensor, but I expect high megapixels with deeper wells for high dynamic range. I think 70mp may be optimistic but 60mp and D810 level dynamic range seems quite possible. It won't have a fast silent shutter at those megapixels. It likely will only have modest AF advances, but it will be a killer landscape camera. Expect to pay $3,500 for it. That leaves us with what for me is probably the most exciting release. I expect at the end of next year an A9s with pretty much the A9 sensor, but tuned to video with full sensor readout 8K video. It should be a killer camera for that application. Very high quality including great slo mo capabilities, very minimal rolling shutter, and full frame 35mm at 8K. If you want to know why there is no slog on the A9, I think this is why. They want to use that sensor for a video centric A9s. In time it ought to be a great option. Those four cameras give Sony some pretty great capabilities for a lot of shooters.
Two more points: first, M4/3rds camera will have silent shutters and that will be a very nice boost for them, but they will always be behind in high ISO--I expect when the measurements come in the Em1 II will be about a stop and two third behind the A9. For many of situation in which you want a silent shutter you also want high ISO, so I just don't think M4/3rds cameras will ever be able to quite compete with FF 35mm in exactly the most sensible market for the A9. I say that even though I think the M4/3rds cameras a fantastic in many respects. Second, although this camera will have a hard time challenging for the sports and wildlife market because of lenses that can change fairly quickly. If Sony can bring a 400 f/2.8 to market within a year (and they have had to know they would want want to dod so for at least a couple years) and a 200 f/2 within two years. They will have a lot of capabilities if they make sure these two lenses work with their 1.4X TC and they can update the LAEA3 to work with their 300 f/2.8 and 500 f/4. Within a few years and probably by the time the A9 II comes around they ought to be able to compete pretty well with Canikon even in these markets that aren't there quite yet.



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:03 PM
rscheffler
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p.29 #7 · p.29 #7 · Pre-order: Sony A9


johnvanr wrote:
But the only group this new camera in theory could add is the photojournalists, as the other groups were already serviced by the A7RII. And photojournalists might not use long lenses on a daily basis, but they and their agencies rely on being able to use one from their own collection or by calling up Canon or Nikon and requesting one for a few days. I also doubt this camera can stand up to the rigors of shooting in conflict zones etc.

gnjphotography wrote:
Not so true. VII agency recently blogged on what cameras there photojournalist are using to cover conflict around the world and mirrorless cameras were in the mix. The issue with Sony, until now, was the dual card slots and more reliable autofocus is low light. Many of the photojournalist stated smaller mirrorless with eye detection made their job easier and made them less discreet to the subjects they were shooting.

-Greg


I think you meant more discreet. There is certainly an advantage for a pro in many situations to look more like an amateur with smaller gear. I could see this being especially the case in conflict zones where a big camera implies pro and puts a target on your back. Realistically, a camera like an RX100 would be adequate in many situations...

For me, I prefer to look like a clueless hipster, or a dentist, with my Leica M.



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:04 PM
GMPhotography
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p.29 #8 · p.29 #8 · Pre-order: Sony A9


There are many times I do not want to be heard nevermind even seen. Doing podium work even with a 135 your still close. I usually find a end seat close to the podium and I have been told on many occasions don't shoot too much because of the noise. Here I can go nuts if I want too.


Apr 21, 2017 at 05:21 PM
rscheffler
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p.29 #9 · p.29 #9 · Pre-order: Sony A9



molson wrote:
Does this mean the A9 will use stopped-down focusing for all lenses, and not just the GM lenses? I can't imagine they would be opening and closing the aperture 60 times per second. And if it does focus everything at the shooting aperture, that doesn't bode well for shooting at small apertures in low light...

snapsy wrote:
That's a good question. According to Sony they stop down the lens during focusing on the A7 series partly to reduce shutter lag (along with correcting for focus shift). There wouldn't be a lag issue in burst shooting after the first frame so I don't know which way Sony went on this for 20fps.


I would think it does use stopped down focusing. In the spec-sheet is says AF tracking is possible to f/11. But of course the quality of AF tracking is to be determined. My experience with Canon EF lenses on 1D cameras is that highest fps rate is possible from wide open to usually about a stop down. The framing rate will decrease the more the lens is stopped down because it has to wait for the physical aperture mechanism to cycle. I believe Sony's EF lens aperture system is very similar in operation and therefore would have similar limitations on maximum sustainable fps rate. Maybe at 5-6 fps it doesn't make much difference, but it will at 10+ fps.



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:29 PM
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p.29 #10 · p.29 #10 · Pre-order: Sony A9


The fact that this camera is supposed to work so well with adapted glass is huge in itself. If people can transition and still use their EF mount glass while Sony makes new glass, this will sell like hot cakes.

Yes I know, 10 fps isn't 20, but the no blackout/no mirror flip/silent shutter/and IBIS will be huge.



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:30 PM
 

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AGeoJO
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p.29 #11 · p.29 #11 · Pre-order: Sony A9


That Sony only includes a single battery with the new camera is, well, not great but still acceptable but that they charge extra for the external battery charger is lame . It maybe OK for the A7 series line of cameras but that's not acceptable for a pro caliber camera that sells for $4,500. We all know that pros will have at least a spare battery around, a full battery in the camera and the other one is being charged. Sorry, Sony, but that's really lame, IMHO.


Apr 21, 2017 at 05:48 PM
Matt Grum
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p.29 #12 · p.29 #12 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
It isn't about the camera, which is probably great, and it wouldn't have been the lenses either except for one thing:
On Sony's home page for this camera, they show almost exclusively images of outdoor sports that require those long lenses that aren't there yet. They give the impression of a system that doesn't really exist.


Oh come on, nobody is being misled - you don't drop $4500 on a camera without looking at what lenses are available first.

From my limited experience shooting football (soccer for the North Americans) the standard setup was one body with a 400mm f/2.8 and one body with a 70-200 f/2.8 for when the action gets close. Sony have the 70-200mm f/2.8. They also have a 300mm f/2.8 and a 500mm f/4 in A-mount. From what I gather you'll be able to use A-mount lenses with AF at 10fps - until longer e-mount glass becomes available.

So there's nothing in the marketing for this camera that couldn't be shot exclusively using gear bearing the Sony logo.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
But for someone like me, who actually shoot motor sports in daylight and sometimes in rain, a 10 year old D2Xs does more or less the same job. It's even weather sealed, proven over many years of heavy use.


If by "more or less the same job" you mean half the resolution, half the light and a quarter of the shooting speed then sure. If the D2X fulfils your requirements use the D2X. Many great shots have been taken with the D2X, and at the end of the day all cameras do "more or less the same job" converting light into images.





Edited on Apr 21, 2017 at 05:53 PM · View previous versions



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:50 PM
mttran
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p.29 #13 · p.29 #13 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Joshua, $4500 is not bad if we consider a fast & maintenance free (minus stabilizer) cam for life


Apr 21, 2017 at 05:51 PM
ggreene
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p.29 #14 · p.29 #14 · Pre-order: Sony A9


ecarlino wrote:
Sony is claiming the a9 is fully weather-sealed, which is a term they’ve backed off from before opting for “weather resistant.”


Brian Smith in a followup comment on his blog article said that according to the head Sony A9 engineer it has the same weather resistance as an A7II. Why would you develop all this ground breaking tech and surround it with a consumer grade body frame and protection? Is this competing at the 1DX2/D5 level or not?



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:55 PM
rscheffler
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p.29 #15 · p.29 #15 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Wanny wrote:
The fact that this camera is supposed to work so well with adapted glass is huge in itself. If people can transition and still use their EF mount glass while Sony makes new glass, this will sell like hot cakes.

Yes I know, 10 fps isn't 20, but the no blackout/no mirror flip/silent shutter/and IBIS will be huge.


This is potentially double-edged for Sony. If compatibility is great, or even on average good enough, they may sell a lot of cameras but may have difficulty moving many to new lenses, particularly super-teles (since this seems aimed very much at sports photographers, in addition to wedding and general PJ applications). I could see it making the camera another cog in a shooter's Canikon system to address specific requirements, rather than all out replacing the other systems. This is pretty much how I would see an a9 for my uses, at least in the shorter term. From the perspective of future Sony super-teles, if adapter compatibility is very good, there's a huge number of Canikon super-teles out in the wild at fairly reasonable prices, which will potentially undercut expensive new glass coming down the line. Already this 'glut' of lenses likely significantly impacts Canikon's own new super-tele sales, perhaps one reason they're so much more expensive than the generation available 10+ years ago.

On the flip side, if compatibility via adapter is not good, it dissuades adoption of the a9 because of the greater need to buy native glass, the lack of certain types of native glass and the overall need to make a full system switch. Once that glass becomes available and if it's compelling enough to encourage wholesale system switches, there will be an even greater glut of Canikon high-end glass on the used market. It will diminish resale value, affecting the buying power of those intending to switch, but also making the cost of entry into areas such as super-teles more affordable for those currently priced out of this market. These buyers, if Sony compatibility is poor, will most likely 'make due' with Canikon cameras. Meanwhile, Canikon will not be sitting still and should remain competitive enough to retain a significant user base. With an increased buy-in via older Canikon glass, if Canikon can remain compelling enough, they will provide sufficient upgrade paths for those intent to slowly work their way up the system.

In either case, I don't see the niche of super-tele lenses being a clear win for Sony. But it's an option they must provide as halo products, for mindshare, and to demonstrate they too offer a complete system solution.



Apr 21, 2017 at 05:59 PM
ecarlino
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p.29 #16 · p.29 #16 · Pre-order: Sony A9


ggreene wrote:
Brian Smith in a followup comment on his blog article said that according to the head Sony A9 engineer it has the same weather resistance as an A7II. Why would you develop all this ground breaking tech and surround it with a consumer grade body frame and protection? Is this competing at the 1DX2/D5 level or not?


from Sony's website, interpret however you prefer:

Reliable dust- and moisture-resistant design

Enjoy carefree shooting in tough environments, with comprehensive dust-and moisture-resistance measures that help guard against moisture and dust. Protection includes sealing around buttons, dials, media jack cover, and enclosure edges featuring tongue-and-groove joints for double shielding to tightly interlock panels and components.


btw - i sent Brian Smith an email yesterday asking if he could tell me if the new a9 AF system had any "cross-type" sensors or made any improvements focusing on horizontal lines and his reply was: "I've never had any problem focusing with any a7-series Sony camera in any orientation." (to his credit, he did actually reply - or at least someone did on his behalf - but like any politician or paid-salesman, he answered the question he wanted to answer and not the one he was asked).


Edited on Apr 21, 2017 at 06:14 PM · View previous versions



Apr 21, 2017 at 06:00 PM
nandadevieast
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p.29 #17 · p.29 #17 · Pre-order: Sony A9


My guess is the read out speed will be less than 1/250. Otherwise Mechanical shutter would not have been there.

Steve Spencer wrote:
It is very interesting to read everyone's impression of this camera. My own view is that this camera makes a very serious run at a pretty big piece of the pro market and will be enticing to quite a few amateurs as well. For the wedding/portrait and many photo journalists this will be a quite compelling camera. I think the killer feature is the silent shutter that looks like it has a ton of capability. We don't know the actual readout speed, but 1/250 seems like a good guess/estimate. At that speed most of the problems, if not all
...Show more



Apr 21, 2017 at 06:10 PM
nandadevieast
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p.29 #18 · p.29 #18 · Pre-order: Sony A9


The Photoclubalpha article i linked above says there are clues in the way the multi charger accessory has been designed, that they will launch a A9s. Besides, the crippled s-log is another clue.

Above article also talks about strengthening of the lens mount, 6 pins vs current 4 pins. Because people will mount their 100-400 on A7 series also, pretty sure that bigger grip and the strengthened mount will appear in future A7 series cameras.



Apr 21, 2017 at 06:16 PM
bjornthun
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p.29 #19 · p.29 #19 · Pre-order: Sony A9


For use on Sony mirrorless I wouldn't lump Canon and Nikon superteles together for one specific readon. Canon superteles have a fully electronic mount, and good adapters exist, namely the MC-11 and Metabones IV. For Nikon the situation is far worse. No good Nikon F to Sony FE adapter exists, due to Nikon mixture of mechanical and electronic linkages, which makes the F mount compatibility very hard to reverse engineer well. Most Nikon superteles in the wild use mechanical stop down, and won't be silent. Only very recently has Nikon introduced superteles with a fully electronic mount, so called E type lenses in Nikon lingo. Only some of these are "in the wild", and only a few Nikon supertele focal lengths have been updated to E type.

I think that we won't see good adapters for Nikon AF lenses to Sony FE mount. They should have been here now, if it were as easy to do as Canon EOS to Sony FE.

If I had a large collection of Nikon AF glass, I would start to worry about the advent of mirrorless, given Nikon's policies. With a large collection of Canon EOS glass I would be just fine.



Apr 21, 2017 at 06:16 PM
Matt Grum
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p.29 #20 · p.29 #20 · Pre-order: Sony A9


ecarlino wrote:
from Sony's website, interpret however you prefer:

Reliable dust- and moisture-resistant design

Enjoy carefree shooting in tough environments, with comprehensive dust-and moisture-resistance measures that help guard against moisture and dust. Protection includes sealing around buttons, dials, media jack cover, and enclosure edges featuring tongue-and-groove joints for double shielding to tightly interlock panels and components.


There's reports of the A9 being "fully weather sealed" floating around but when I tired to chase down the sources I end up with the same quote, which is to say there is some weather sealing but it hasn't been substantially improved upon other cameras in the A7 series.

The issue is that when I had a Canon 1DIV I would shoot outside in the rain all day long, I knew I could do this because I'd seen other people with Canon 1-series cameras do the same. But with the Sony bodies I'm hesitant because I don't know for sure that they can take all-day drizzle. These days the type of shooting I do doesn't require this so I don't really care, but I can see why others would like more clarification.

ecarlino wrote:
btw - i sent Brian Smith an email yesterday asking if he could tell me if the new a9 AF system had any "cross-type" sensors or made any improvements focusing on horizontal lines and his reply was: "I've never had any problem focusing with any a7-series Sony camera in any orientation."


Yeah I don't see why whatever arrangement he has with Sony precludes a straight answer of "no" if that is the truth - I'm pretty sure I read this information (that the phase detect pixels are horizontal only) elsewhere. I imagine there's a technical reason for this relating to readout/sampling speed of the phase detect pixels.




Apr 21, 2017 at 06:21 PM
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