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If you were creating a great photo computer, what would i...
  
 
Paul Mo
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p.9 #1 · p.9 #1 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


I went with a Thermalright True Spirit Direct - dual 140mm fans. My OCD would've hated the Noctua color scheme.

Easy enough installation - and a chance to clean out the case. Fiddliest part was inserting rubber grommets into the radiator.

Much, much quieter than the H100i. Temps seem on a par.



Sep 28, 2017 at 06:10 AM
rico
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p.9 #2 · p.9 #2 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


Just finished qualification testing for the new Xeons. My puny CPU heatsinks were thermally adequate for Sandy Bridge 2650 and conveniently low profile, but ramped up to an unacceptable whine with Ivy Bridge 2680v2. I was seriously considering some delidding action even though the solder situation is unclear for Xeon v2 LGA2011. Whacking a soldered lid will likely destroy the die. I decided on the conservative approach of big-ass heatsinks, and my $130 investment in a pair of Noctua NH-U14S has paid off. Core temps under heavy load have dropped by 10C and, more importantly, fan volume is below the ambient. 140mm fans at 450rpm is a thing of beauty...if you have the room! And I thought my 120mm case fans were impressive.



Had to remove the crossbar and lower drive cage to get 2kg of heatsink installed. Water cooling might be space-efficient around the CPU sockets but I don't trust the MTBF.



Oct 08, 2017 at 03:14 AM
15Bit
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p.9 #3 · p.9 #3 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


I bought U12DX-i4's for mine. They seem to do a good job also.

Probably a good idea not to de-lid: I just pulled the top of a 2670v2 that didn't make it through the postal system totally intact (thanks due to my Dad for the great packing). I think the pictures tell it nicely - they are soldered. It's pretty soft solder though - i scratched a bit off with my fingernail for the second picture. So with a carefully applied heat source you might be able to delid without destroying the CPU, but it probably isn't trivial.














Oct 08, 2017 at 11:28 AM
15Bit
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p.9 #4 · p.9 #4 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


Just out of interest, why did you associate all your RAM with one CPU?


Oct 08, 2017 at 11:37 AM
dgdg
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p.9 #5 · p.9 #5 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


I thought cpu fans always vented outwards (to the rear) and not downwards. Haven't built a PC in a couple years though, nor anything with two physical CPUs.


Oct 08, 2017 at 01:14 PM
15Bit
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p.9 #6 · p.9 #6 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


dgdg wrote:
I thought cpu fans always vented outwards (to the rear) and not downwards. Haven't built a PC in a couple years though, nor anything with two physical CPUs.


With the dual socket arrangements you are somewhat at the mercy of the motherboard manufacturer as to how they lay it all out, and even which heatsink mount they use. I can't see a manufacturer name on rico's board, but i'd hazard a guess that it's a Supermicro, and they can be quite "difficult" with respect to using anything except low profile blade server type coolers.

As you can see from the (somewhat poorly lit) pic, my Asus board has a better layout than rico's in this respect.








Oct 08, 2017 at 01:27 PM
rico
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p.9 #7 · p.9 #7 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


@dgdg I set up airflow in this case as bottom-front to top-rear, and PS at top blows outward. The CPU fans conform to the scheme.

@15Bit Wow, I didn't know you were so hard core. Ha, ha. That delidding pic makes me queasy. Mobo is the server-grade Tyan S7050 with 4 GbE ports, SAS, and 16 DIMM slots. This box is for testing only, so it has just 4 sticks (hidden under the Noctuas). As you conjecture, HS volume and socket spacing constrains my placement options. I wanted your placement but needed 1.5mm more spacing. The smaller U12 would work, but I wasn't in a mood to compromise CFM. Airflow interference from CPU0 to CPU1 hasn't materialized according to temp measurements.

Re delidding, I'm rather inspired to perform the operation for science using a retired Sandy Bridge 2609 (street value $10). After scouring overclock.net (some serious fanatics over there), my unique approach would be to heat my kitchen oven to about 120C, heat up the entire package, then whack off the lid using a custom jig made of wood. Wifey gives her full support, I think.



Oct 08, 2017 at 05:13 PM
15Bit
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p.9 #8 · p.9 #8 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


rico wrote:
@15Bit@ Wow, I didn't know you were so hard core. Ha, ha. That delidding pic makes me queasy. Mobo is the server-grade Tyan S7050 with 4 GbE ports, SAS, and 16 DIMM slots. This box is for testing only, so it has just 4 sticks (hidden under the Noctuas). As you conjecture, HS volume and socket spacing constrains my placement options. I wanted your placement but needed 1.5mm more spacing. The smaller U12 would work, but I wasn't in a mood to compromise CFM. Airflow interference from CPU0 to CPU1 hasn't materialized according to temp measurements.

Tyan? Are they still in business? I haven't seen a tyan board since the late 90's when i had a dual pentium (original) on a tyan board. I guess they don't sell over this side of the water any more.


Re delidding, I'm rather inspired to perform the operation for science using a retired Sandy Bridge 2609 (street value $10). After scouring overclock.net (some serious fanatics over there), my unique approach would be to heat my kitchen oven to about 120C, heat up the entire package, then whack off the lid using a custom jig made of wood. Wifey gives her full support, I think.


I was pretty brutal with mine as it was already non-functional. My suggestion for de-lidding would be to run round the edges with a craft knife or razor to break the glue, push in some sharpened matchsticks to exert force and then try to heat it in such a way that the CPU is upside down and the lid can fall away when the solder melts. If you can be patient, i want to try to take the lid and solder off mine so i can polish it down for a bit of electron microscope fun. I might be able to give you an approx melting temp on the solder. Hell, i'm a materials research scientist - I should be able to give you a fairly accurate composition and accompanying phase diagram...



Oct 08, 2017 at 07:08 PM
rico
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p.9 #9 · p.9 #9 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


@15Bit Tyan is alive and well, although not really a retail brand. Composition and especially melting point would be interesting to know. I have read 90C for the solder which seems slightly low given the maximum operating temp is 105. My attempts at finesse with an X-Acto failed for two CPUs (one Sandy, one Ivy) so brute force is my next method to loosen the plastic sealant.


Oct 08, 2017 at 08:23 PM
15Bit
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p.9 #10 · p.9 #10 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


Ok, first experiment performed - on a hotplate it melts between 155 and 160C. There will be a slight temperature delta between the plate thermocouple and the solder, but not much more than 5C i would expect. And there is a lot of solder there too. I'll try to get the composition tomorrow, but a quick google suggests either Indium or Lead based. Lead isn't allowed in electronics any more, and Indium is expensive. So my curiosity is aroused.








Oct 12, 2017 at 08:33 AM
 

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rico
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p.9 #11 · p.9 #11 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


@15Bit That temperature is in line with my expectations. I would be slightly hesitant to heat the entire CPU package to 160C for delidding: something else soldered might start melting!


Oct 12, 2017 at 10:57 AM
15Bit
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p.9 #12 · p.9 #12 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


rico wrote:
@15Bit@ That temperature is in line with my expectations. I would be slightly hesitant to heat the entire CPU package to 160C for delidding: something else soldered might start melting!


You're not the only one. They did melt the solder in there to start though, so the package must be fairly resilient.

I think your best approach would be to preheat a metal plate to 200C and then place the cpu lid on there and try to "flash-melt" it. That way you'll transfer the least heat you can and you just have to hope that the thermal conductivity of the silicon is low enough that the rest of the package remains undamaged. Putting the whole thing in an oven seems more risky.



Oct 12, 2017 at 02:09 PM
RustyBug
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p.9 #13 · p.9 #13 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


Late to the party ... a few questions.

From a Photoshop perspective, it seems that clock speed trumps cores / HT for many things, as Adobe isn't very multi-core / HT advantageous. But, for some things (certain tasks / filters), more cores can be an aid. As file sizes grow, and .TIFF / stitching / layers become quite large, I'm starting to wonder about where the line is that clock speed succumbs to cores / HT.

My question is going back to the dual CPU of the Xeon:
Does clock speed of a single CPU trump a dual CPU of lesser clock speed.? Or, can the dual CPU be advantaged by PS / Adobe, whereas it can't be advantaged with multi-core / HT in a single CPU?


Next question:
Scratch Disc ... what's the best way to set up the scratch disc? I'm running three SSD's on my Thinkpad T430S (120GB in C: slot, 500GB in the CD Bay, 500GB MSATA).

16GB RAM
i7-3520M @ 2.9

Obviously, the laptop isn't going to be switching over to dual CPU (thinking about a tower build ), but I am wondering about how much gain I might get from a CPU upgrade (or not) in the laptop.


Third:
Lots of newer model laptops out there. CPU's with "U" designators, etc., but most seem to be relatively a wash in performance (cpubenchmark) ... that I wouldn't want to give up my 3 drives for. So, what is the "next move" in laptop territory, coming from the i7-3520M, 16GB & 3 SSD's? (prefer 13" - 14" territory)?

Upgrade CPU
Revise Scratch Disc arrangement (not sure what current is)
New Laptop (would be a 2 in 1 type) for performance gain vs. feature gain.

Tower / Desktop with a Cintiq attached (recliner is my workstation)

NR / Filters / stitching / layers is where I get hung up on my current setup ... next move =



Oct 13, 2017 at 07:32 AM
Ho1972
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p.9 #14 · p.9 #14 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


RustyBug wrote:
Next question:
Scratch Disc ... what's the best way to set up the scratch disc? I'm running three SSD's on my Thinkpad T430S (120GB in C: slot, 500GB in the CD Bay, 500GB MSATA).

16GB RAM
i7-3520M @ 2.9


The best way to set up scratch is to have so much RAM that it never or very rarely comes into play. ~32GB will suffice for normal image editing, but if you're stitching images then you may need more. If you're forced to use a config that will likely, under normal scenarios, read from scratch (writing to it is not optional but poses no avoidable performance hit), then optimally your scratch file should be located on a drive that is not used to store data that Photoshop or your OS will access during an editing session.

Some users for whom scratch usage is a fact of life have set their scratch to run from RAID arrays, but that's beyond my experience.



Oct 13, 2017 at 10:46 AM
RustyBug
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p.9 #15 · p.9 #15 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


Ho1972 wrote:
The best way to set up scratch is to have so much RAM that it never or very rarely comes into play. ~32GB will suffice for normal image editing, but if you're stitching images then you may need more. If you're forced to use a config that will likely, under normal scenarios, read from scratch (writing to it is not optional but poses no avoidable performance hit), then optimally your scratch file should be located on a drive that is not used to store data that Photoshop or your OS will access during an editing session.

Some users for
...Show more

So, if PS and OS are running on C:, then scratch disc should be NOT be on C:.
Or ... if my images are on my M: Drive (mSATA) and R: Drive (removable bay), then my scratch disc SHOULD be on C:

What kind of things "read from scratch disc"?

What about Cache Levels setup?



Oct 13, 2017 at 01:21 PM
rico
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p.9 #16 · p.9 #16 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


RustyBug wrote:
My question is going back to the dual CPU of the Xeon:
Does clock speed of a single CPU trump a dual CPU of lesser clock speed.? Or, can the dual CPU be advantaged by PS / Adobe, whereas it can't be advantaged with multi-core / HT in a single CPU?

If LR runs on dual Xeon sockets, the OS will distribute two threads to each socket. This is a superior arrangement than running four threads on one socket (although more expensive due to Xeon pricing). Two sockets double the memory bandwidth, and permissible turbo settings can be higher. The real gain, however, is having more cores but LR can't play that game.



Oct 13, 2017 at 03:01 PM
RustyBug
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p.9 #17 · p.9 #17 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


rico wrote:
If LR runs on dual Xeon sockets, the OS will distribute two threads to each socket. This is a superior arrangement than running four threads on one socket (although more expensive due to Xeon pricing). Two sockets double the memory bandwidth, and permissible turbo settings can be higher. The real gain, however, is having more cores but LR can't play that game.


Gotcha @ 2 (CPU) @ 2:1 vs. 1 (CPU) @ 4:1 ... can Adobe harness (more CPU's vs. more cores in a single CPU) Xeon 2 (CPU) @ 2:1 better than if it were only 1 (CPU) @ 2:1. Or is that a wasted effort also?



Curious too, about upgrading from Ivy Bridge "M" to Ivy Bridge "XM" ... how much gain that might present for Adobe products.



Oct 13, 2017 at 03:12 PM
15Bit
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p.9 #18 · p.9 #18 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


Rusty,

An interesting fact about your current CPU is that it is actually dual core, not quad. Intel has this marketing trick on the mobile i7's of implying that they are quad core when they are actually dual with hyperthreading. I doubt it is upgradable too - i'm pretty sure the upgradable laptop is a long distant beast.

My personal opinion is that for the near future clock speed will continue to trump core count. That is assuming you have 4 cores. If you only have 2 core, then i think there is probably a good case that a quad at the same speed would be substantially quicker.

I don't think i would recommend a dual socket setup for Adobe software. For a start, dual socket setups are expensive, and unless Adobe embark on a massive code re-write then the extra cores won't give you corresponding better performance. And as an addendum to rico's comment about thread distribution, putting 2 threads on each cpu will only give you a performance boost if they are working on different tasks - if those threads need to communicate with each other then the communication latency between sockets might well make it slower than having all the threads on the same physical cpu.

And rico - the doubled RAM bandwidth arising from dual sockets is dependent on the OS being properly NUMA aware, is it not?

Bottom line from me is that i think that the new 6 core i7 8700K looks like the best of all worlds as it has both high clockspeed and more cores: no Intel CPU will clock much faster and neither PS or LR scales well past 6 cores.

Scratch disk is actually very simple to decide - choose the drive that has the least traffic. The C drive hosts the operating system, so it always has some traffic. Your photo's drive only gets traffic when you load or save an image (though LR does update sidecar files contiuously). Assuming both are SSD's or both HDD's, i would use the photo's drive. If the C-drive is an SSD and the photos is an HDD i would use the C-drive, because the SSD is much faster than the OS I/O needs and latency is king. As already commented, having more RAM than you need is the best policy, though even then LR will write some temp data to both the C-drive and the drive where catalogue is located.




Oct 13, 2017 at 05:33 PM
RustyBug
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p.9 #19 · p.9 #19 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


15Bit wrote:
Rusty,

An interesting fact about your current CPU is that it is actually dual core, not quad. Intel has this marketing trick on the mobile i7's of implying that they are quad core when they are actually dual with hyperthreading. I doubt it is upgradable too - i'm pretty sure the upgradable laptop is a long distant beast.

My personal opinion is that for the near future clock speed will continue to trump core count. That is assuming you have 4 cores. If you only have 2 core, then i think there is probably a good case that a quad
...Show more

Yes, the i7 3520M is dual core.

I specifically opted for the dual core with the higher clock speed vs. a slower quad core when I purchased it ... specifically for the reasons noted about Adobe's inability to harness the multi-core as well as one might otherwise hope. At that time, I hadn't yet run into stitching pano's, and I was shooting 14MP max. Now that I'm pushing NR, 26MP, and pano stitching, with filters, etc. ... well, the game is a little different now, so I'm pondering if that strategy to favor clock speed over more cores is still relevant ... or needs to be revised, and to what extent I should expect to see improvements (or not). Also, if Adobe has changed anything of significance to better harness a QM or XM.

When I picked up my T430s, the prospect of a quad at the same clock speed wasn't really in the realm of possibilities (i.e. choice @ faster dual or slower quad), and I mostly wanted responsiveness.

As to the upgradeable laptop ... yup, this is likely the Last of the Mohicans.

Thus, I'm wondering about a QM or XM possibility? I love my keyboard and have three drives to work with. I can certainly get a new laptop, but by the time I grab 16GB and 1TB SSD, well you know what those $$$ look like. That would be okay (sorta), but the CPU's I'm finding are mostly in the "U" or "Y" territory, and it kinda seems like I'd be going from the frying pan to the fire, rather than really improving my processing ... thus the question regarding QM, HQ or XM in my T430S.

I'm even toying with the idea of using a Cintiq connected to a tower build (hence the interest about dual Xeon) for my PS editing, and calling it a day on my ideations about more power for laptop processing.

Heck, I've even let the notion of a Mac Pro / Tower and attaching an iPad / Cintiq crawl into the fray.



Oct 13, 2017 at 06:36 PM
RustyBug
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p.9 #20 · p.9 #20 · If you were creating a great photo computer, what would it be?


I just took a look at my Scratch disc setup.

I had it set to C: first ... with only 8GB remaining free of 120GB (total).
I've since changed it to the other two SSD's (each with over 200GB free)

Apparently, I never thought to change it from the C: first, after adding the pair of 500GB SSD's.
I just retained the sequence order of C: first, followed by the other two.

C: is now out of the equation. We'll see how / if that makes a diff.

Thanks, I think it finally "clicked" for me.

BTW, what % do you recommend for PS memory. I'm set at 70% right now, which is roughly 10.5 GB out of my 16GB.



Oct 13, 2017 at 06:51 PM
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